BB Dogs, Live or Dead Detection, You decide(22 posts)
As President of NESDCA I have recently talked with trainers not currently training their dog teams to alert only on live Bed Bugs and eggs as set forth in our standards. I was told by one of these trainers that his clients want the dogs to alert on Cast Skins, Dead Bugs and Fecal matter so they know where it is so they can clean it up.
I thought the bedbugger community could let all of us know in the industry, what you want to see in a Bed Bug Detection Dog.
1. The ability to Find Live Bed Bugs,Live Eggs and to discriminate between live bugs & eggs and fecal matter,cast skins,and dead bugs, so the PCO knows where to direct the treatment and the end consumer and PCO know when the Bugs are gone.
2.Dogs that do not discriminate live from dead, cast skins from live, fecal matter from eggs etc. So that (accoring to this trainer) you can clean them up.
For the record NESDCA is a non-profit organization, formed to help protect the end consumer when dealing with Entomology Scent Detection Canines, we do this by educating them and giving them up to date information in the field of Entomology Scent Detection Canines. We have set a standard (as discussed at other places on this site) for Entomology Scent Detection Canine Teams. We are not partial to one trainer, handler, or team except as it concerns what is best for the consumer.
All Bed Bug professionals, please read the following:
And, though you may have read the above thread when it was originally posted, please take special note of the following, added yesterday (11/12):
I would also ask that professionals remember that the purpose of this website is to share information about bed bugs. Please do not use it as a venue for fighting with other service providers. You may ask questions of other providers, and you may provide information (linked to the source of that information whether it is another part of this website, or an external website). But please do not try to sway public opinion about your business or your competitors except in regards to supported facts.
If you violate these rules, your posts may be deleted at my discretion. Gross disregard for these rules may lead to your being banned. If you have concerns, contact me: nobugs at bedbugger.com.
paying a big chunk of change for skins, dead bugs and feces is a bit back-ended and hind-sighted to me...sorry for the pun, couldn't resist
seriously, i think the priority should be live bugs and eggs, as these can more effectively be moved to the 'eliminated' category......i'm also not comfortable with the ambiguity involved with wondering whether the evidence found is alive or dead...especially if it can't be immediately accessed...this can also drive up your costs for treatments...
I have posted nothing on here that I do not truly believe to be of help to the bedbugger community. please pm me if I have done anything you deem inappropriate and I will correct it post haste.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not at the point where I would consider a dog, I only have my first PCO inspection later this week. But if he was going to bring a dog (I wish!), I think I'd prefer that it alert on live bugs only. Otherwise, if the dog alerts on dead bugs, skins, etc., how do you every really know if you've eliminated them?
Peace of mind is a big issue, from what I've read here it seems some people are afraid and trepidatious for months or years after they've cleared their infestation. IMHO, a live-bugs-only alert would offer me more peace of mind.
But there are far more experienced people than I on this forum...
You are clearly implying that the bed bug dog training methods you are involved with are better than others. Which may or may not be true, but certainly might be seen as indirectly sniping at others.
Just to be clear, I don't think you violated any policies, but I kind of wanted to get that warning out there--not just to you but to other professionals who might join in. Where bed bug dog threads are begun, tomatoes often get thrown from both sides.
I imagine the post where Sam is implying his training methods are better than others is in another thread correct? I certainly do not see that indicated here.
For clarification I am not, nor is NESDCA involved directly or indirectly with the training of dogs. We are a certifing organization. We certify that a Canine Team trained to detect a certain odor meets a certain standard. Regardless of who trained by, or what training method is used. Trainers are responsible for there own methods of training and do not recieve guidance from NESDCA on how to do this and we do not ask them to tell us how they do it. We are only concerned with the final abilities of the team certifying. I understand there are several methods used for training dogs.
I think what brought nobugsonme's post about attacking other companies is the bitterness towards other companies that exists in the canine scent detection industry. I know that there's has been some "angst" in past posts about canine scent detection and the companies involved in it. I'm not saying that some companies are wrong or right or otherwise, but I do know that there is a lot of tension between certain companies.
I was referring to this:
"As President of NESDCA I have recently talked with trainers not currently training their dog teams to alert only on live Bed Bugs and eggs as set forth in our standards."
I was also referring to the fact that Sam appears to be asking consumers to reinforce the training methods which comply with NESDCA certification rules. Although those two points might seem innocent enough, it is within the context of an ongoing discussion in these forums that it appears to hold the potential for factionalizing.
Sam, though I understand the NESDCA does not train dogs, it is clear from the quotation above that certain types of training received by some working scent dogs do not meet your standards.
Like Bugologist (and unlike Dawn), I am not taking sides in the matter. As the administrator, I am trying to avoid the tensions between different trainers and dog technicians that I have seen on these forums, because I think it is best for the consumers. Like I said,
"Just to be clear, I don't think you violated any policies, but I kind of wanted to get that warning out there--not just to you but to other professionals who might join in. Where bed bug dog threads are begun, tomatoes often get thrown from both sides."
I have corresponded with Sam in PMs and I think we're on the same page.
I see your point and how it could be interpreted that way, but to say it is "clear" when it is an opinion of one's interpretation of what I said, I would have to with much respect attached, say is incorrect. I will try to be more precise in future posts so as not to leave as much room for interpretation. It was not my intention and still is not my intention to make this an advertisement for NESDCA. NESDCA does not tell trainers how to train there dogs or handlers. We are only interested in the results after training, not how they got there.
To be transparent and to state my opinion, Yes I think bed bug dogs should be trained to find live and "discriminate against" other scents. That is what my clients have expressed they want. I do not own a Bed Bug Scent Detection Dog and became involved with NESDCA through the Termite Scent Detection Side.
After talking to trainers and yes this is plural, I have not just spoken to one.I was really genuinally curious what the public/end consumer was looking for. When we formed NESDCA I as well as the others involved thought from years of experience, we knew what the public/consumer wanted/needed in a dog team and so we set the standards to that need.
I am open to other opinions, and these trainers whom have dealt with the public/consumers too had one that differed from mine/NESDCA's The one trainer told me we should consider changing the standards so more teams could certify.
I thought we should get more input into this from the people that know best, in this case, what they want. Where better to get a fair view of opinions on this subject than on bedbugger. That is what I am after. I posted what I did about who I am and NESDCA because I have been accused here of not being transparent, and to be honest because of some responses to post I and others have made here, my "do not offend" and "watch what you say" radars are up. I wanted to be as open about who I am and what I am about as I can. It was not an advertisement for NESDCA. Nobugs, admittedly the answers recieved here are so far what I expected, but when I posted the discussion it was because of a genuine curiousity. This is a great place to get that kind of feed back. Who better in this instance to say what they need than those that have suffered through and infestation.
My post was intended to create discussion on both "sides" of this subject. I am really curious to hear what the bedbugger public wants and why. If they like the idea of dogs that detect cast skins, along with live etc, Why? If they like the idea of dogs detecting fecal matter, Why? If they like the idea of dogs that detect dead eggs, why? If they like the idea of dogs that detect only live, why?
This is a chance for the bedbugger community to let the Bed Bug Scent Detection Dog Industry know what you want. I do not own a bed bug dog and to my knowledge do not compete with anyone here so I really have no agenda except to find out really once and for all what people want in a bed bug scent detection dog.
I know we are on the same page when it comes to finding out, and doing what is best for the people suffering through a bed bug infestation.
i am by no means taking sides at all in the matter i simply interpreted mr. smith's comments differently, i suppose. i took his statement to mean that his methods were different (but no better or worse) than other trainers.
"I will try to be more precise in future posts so as not to leave as much room for interpretation. It was not my intention and still is not my intention to make this an advertisement for NESDCA. NESDCA does not tell trainers how to train there dogs or handlers. We are only interested in the results after training, not how they got there."
The NESDCA only certifies dogs who are trained to detect certain materials, and so the the NESDCA supports only one of the outcomes you are asking about. In that sense, you are biased.
My warning, as I am now saying for the third time, was not simply directed at you, Sam, but at other bed bug dog professionals who come upon this thread. That is why I addressed it to "all bed bug professionals" and not "to sam". And it stands as a warning. Not an accusation or indictment, but a warning. I don't think anyone can argue with a warning. You can carry on with the discussion.
Dawn, this is not the first time you have posted messages supporting the NESDCA and people using NESDCA-certified dogs. It does kind of look like you're taking sides.
I was simply stating, in a different thread, that people in the tri-state area now had a NESDCA certified dog available to them SHOULD they decide they wish to utitlize it. I stated that and nothing more. In fact, in the past, I have also stated that I used a dog that was unrelated to NESDCA. So in fact, I am not taking sides - I have posted information regarding BOTH sides.
Well, you also challenged a bed bug dog provider who is not part of the NESDCA. This might be necessary, but for the presence of so many professionals doing so. Anyway, readers can make up their own minds about that.
With all due respect, I did not 'challenge' Mr. Summers, I simply asked him for specifics on the problem with Dr. Oi's research as I was not at Pestworld and could only rely on what he could relate to me. I'm actually beginning to get a little upset here because I, as a bed bug sufferer myself, am being treated like I'm doing something wrong when all I was trying to do is help people who have gone through what I've gone through. I thought my information about having bed bugs dogs from BOTH organizations would be helpful but I suppose it's best I now keep any further experiences to myself.
Dawn, you are perfectly welcome to share your views. I was sharing mine that you appeared to be taking sides. Since you assert this is not true, I am not sure what the problem was: you were free to share your view, I shared mine. You disagreed. Isn't that fair enough? We can share our views and readers can judge for themselves.
Thanks Nobugs. And, by the way, I read your PM AFTER I posted this.
I know you are not directing it just to me. Didn't mean to sound like I thought you were. Just clarifying my position.
Lets get this thread back to it's original intention to discuss what you want to see in a Bed Bug Scent Detection Dog Team. That is what I am interested in.
Would it be reasonable to assume that where there are cast skins and fecal matter, there could be live bugs? I vacuumed daily for about 3-4 months, so there would be no old cast skins lying around unless they're contained in mattress, boxspring or walls. As I research this subject, I actually feel more confused about how to proceed.
The simple answer is yes. If you are finding cast skins & feces in an area that has recently been cleaned, then I would think that we would have circumstantial evidence of bed bug activity. This may indicate the location of a harborage.
For all who read: it is time for the NESDCA to stop holding itself out as the association that has developed the industry standard for bed bug dogs. NESDCA claims that it has accredited trainers, accredited teams and a accredited facility. My question is who, or what, accredited all these individuals and entities? Your evaluators according to your website are themselves, self-proclaimed accredited trainers and part of the accredited teams. Most of the "accredited teams" have purchased their dogs from J&K Academy, your accredited facility. The owner of the J@K Academy provided dogs and training for the recent University of Florida research, on bed bug dogs. Questions have been brought forth regarding the validity of the research. The goals of NESDCA are admirable. NESDCA in house certification creates the potential for an inheret conflict-of-interest. The NESDCA needs to seek out an independent non-for-profit organization for purposes of certifying it's members dogs. Until then, I would encourage all those seeking bed bug dog service not to use NESDCA member dog teams.
You must log in to post.