"Bat bugs" he says. BAT BUGS??!!!! « Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums

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"Bat bugs" he says. BAT BUGS??!!!!

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buggeroff

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 11:21:05
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So Richard Pollack wrote back and says what I have is "a creature of interest" (well, everything's relative, I guess) but it is not a bed bug. It's a bat bug.

For some reason, I am insanely relieved. Actually, I'm relieved for several reasons, some of which may not have any basis in reality. The main thing I am hopeful about is that perhaps bat bugs are not as resistant to pyrethroids as some populations of bedbugs seem to be (Richard could not confirm that).

Another thing is that it means I did not spend six weeks in a Phoenix hotel being eaten by bedbugs without knowing it. I did not infest an airplane on my way home. The Waldorf-Astoria is innocent. I know where my enemy came from and it's not my fault.

It also appears unlikely that air conditioner repairmen carry them from house to house (I was more worried about other people's houses than mine, but there it is). Pollack thinks they probably just strolled down from the attic.

On the other hand, the personal habits of bat bugs are similar in terms of the way they hide, etc., and my attic is probably full of them. I guess I still have to do all the things you have to do when you're dealing with bed bugs, so all my laundry has not been entirely wasted, but I also have to get rid of the bats (if they're still there) and seal up the openings in the attic.

I've called two PCOs. One sounded like he'd worked with a lot of bat infestations but, frankly, he sounded very casual about the bugs. The other one sounded completely clueless and can't even come over until Thursday. Will continue to look for a suitable PCO. At least I know what to talk to them about.
thebedbugresource

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 13:18:08
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This is precisely why having a sample is so important. Treatment of bat (or bird) bugs needs to start at the source (often the attic or roosting space).

It is also equally important that your PCO be able to tell the difference between bed, bat and bird bugs.

Sincerely,

Sean
Entomologist / Pest Professional
www.thebedbugresource.com
willow-the-wisp

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 13:55:09
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Hey there buggeroff: yeah I guess it is relative ...

I was concerned I too had BAT bugs and the fact thatâ€”that, had never been confirmed, still irks me some.

See â€¦ the bed is near the usually opened window . Iâ€™m on the top floorâ€”and we'd had a lot of roosting birds, say 6 feet--10 feet away from the very bed I sleep on. I had also had a falcon land on my windowsill..

Also â€¦ seagulls â€¦ pigeons â€¦.

Last month only, I heard that Management had put up the pigeon wire on the roof from another tenant. I decided it was not BAT bugs for the most part in my case, because 90% of all of these bugs I had--were nested on the far side of the bed--AWAY from the window not closer to the window. So that made no sense had they been BAT bugs.

David Cain ... bedbugco .. @ uk ... has at least one picture of either a bat bug or a bird mite on his site. Someone had posed a question of some confusion about it all a few weeks ago. I'll bet (and I hope) he'll see this thread and he â€œchimes in.â€

I will Pm him about this thread.

My advice about PCO' who come off, lackadaisical or nonchalant is from mostly hearing this from other's stories. Personally, I'd not totally right off the guy who was sounding too casual to you. (I get a sneaking suspicion many PCO's do that as in, it is their bedside manner.) It's just a feeling and maybe not with all of them. Most of the monthly guys, here, reply in casual way, when asked about stuff too.

Could it e this â€¦. Some of these casual PCO people, may be thinking to themselves â€¦
.... I do this all week long, itâ€™s quicker to act relaxed and perhaps when I do act relaxed it will save me time and I can get info out of the client better while also allaying their fears.
A good BAT bug guy, would, usually, I feel, welcome a client who is interested in the study of ridding themselves of the BAT bug as would they all about any bug.
But we have to all face facts ... PCO's are prone to get into a routine, just as are any other profesional people. Where is the cut-off point that we â€œright them off as to detached and uncaring as opposed to their bedside manner???

My own Medical Doctor is that way. Calm. soft, semi-friendly semi-detached in demeanor. I do think it often will "cut time for these folks" relax some anxious clients and if that is the case, here, then it may be a "good thing" and not a
"I'm a GOD thingâ€”so how dare you bug suffererâ€™s ask me so many Q's."

Re: David Cainâ€™s picture of the bat or bird bug I saw, well â€¦ it surely does seem to have wings, or at best, visible residual wings, that are much more prominent, than anything you could call a visible â€œwingâ€ on a bed bug.
At least one article I had read early on said BED BUGS have residual wings.... Therefore, I have always been a bit lost there. (Some of the bugs that jay-walked across my bed and died to NOT talk about it--seemed to have like some sort of a "thin-wing-pointed up" but only some. Also they were blacker in color. Is this true with what your experiencing???)

To look at a real Bed bug, if there is a vestigial wing--I have not seen it not even upon close examination. Either it is missing altogether or is it that the wing is so attached--you just cant tell it is even there. The former seems to be more the case in the BED bug.

Out of terrific curiosity, I'd like to know, when you get time to tell us all--all about it, and in as much detail as time allows you to and as you feel comfortable doing.

I'm sure many of us here would want this info--You may have a bad bug problem, but it also makes you a bit of a star on here in my eyes.
Gosh .... what do they look like, specifically? Nearly every detail of these bat bugs eludes me. I hope you will at some point be able to post a photo thru a Flickr Photo accounts and link the accounts to this site by copy and past the URL of your Flickr account. This is the advice I have seen key master â€œNobugsonmeâ€ give to some others, 9including me) who had photos to be posted of bugs--and not solely just BED bugs.
A link to flicker can easily be found here or just â€œGoogled Copied and Pasted.â€
I'm quite sure this is cool to do, so long as all your posts refer to the BAT bug not the BED bug.
â€œNew Bitesâ€ can become so easily confused due to lack of sleep. They many times latch on to something they read and run with it. I hope this does not put you out or put you off â€¦ as in, I have too much of an expectation on what and how much you will share with us, about these other critters.
i.e. ... I hope you have a dig camera, the desire, and the time.

I know there is a big difference between the BAT BUG ... and the BIRD MITE.

And they say the Bat Bug is a close relative of the Temperate and the Tropical BED BUG, (Evolutionary wise).

Sorry it happened to youâ€”but it is â€¦ fascinating to me.
Please let us know, when and as, and if--you can.

Best wishes

Willow
buggeroff

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 14:48:26
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Hey willow!

Since you are interested, I will copy my correspondence with Rich Pollack with my name removed. What he wrote to me is absolutely all I know about bat bugs except that the bugs I sent him looked (to me) just like every photo I've seen on the Net of a bed bug - same color, same size, same shape, same blood squishing out when killed! Rich also left me a voice mail message and, between that and these emails, he seemed quite definite that what I have is NOT bed bugs. I would guess that one very useful thing about an entomologist is that he knows the difference between two closely related species of bug, eh? I do have a camera and two remaining bug specimens embalmed in tape, but I don't know if I could get a photo that would show you a difference - Rich used a microscope, as he points out. I'll fool around with it this weekend and see if I can come up with something worth posting.

Are you saying you've never had a definite ID done on your bugs? It might really be worth doing because you can do all the spraying, DE-ing and isolating in the world, but if you don't get rid of the bats/birds, you're going to keep getting bugs - if that's what yours are.

I really hope David does look in on this thread because I'd love to know his opinion as to what the insecticide-resistance issues might be with bat bugs.

As far as PCOs, I'm going to have both of these guys over for a look and an estimate and a third one, also, if I can find one, and give them a chance to impress me in person. But I'm not going to start writing big checks unless one seems to be more thorough and knowledgeable than these people appeared on the phone.

Before I learned my way around this site more, I posted some of my experience over on the FAQ page. As you'll see from that post, I found a BB strolling across my bed one morning at the end of June and mistook it for a tick. I realized it wasn't a tick when I whacked it and it died really easily (you have to work pretty hard to kill a tick). It squirted blood and something in my mind connected it to a conversation I'd had not long ago with a friend who is also struggling with bed bugs. I jumped to the conclusion that bed bugs is what I had.

So I started cleaning - vacuuming, washing, laundering, vacuuming, throwing out, etc., etc. All in all, I found two live bugs and four or five dead ones - none in my bed except that first one and all in the same room. I made a lot of mistakes - moved to the guest room, set off flea bombs all over the house and did just about every other dumb thing. The bites I've had could be almost anything since I live in a pretty rural area and I spend a lot of time outdoors. Could be mosquitoes, fleas, gnats, biting flies, ands, spiders, who knows? I've found only two sets of bites I thought looked more like bed bug bites than something else. One set itched a lot for a long time. The other didn't itch at all, though they swelled up a lot and are still visible over a week later.

I originally thought I brought BBs back from a business trip since I was traveling a lot last spring. Now I guess I have a serious infestation of bat bugs in the attic and a few stragglers wandered down via an air conditioning duct or something.

_____________________________________
[email from Pollack posted without author's permission and so deleted]
bed-bugscouk

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 18:39:10
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Hi,

Just got in a saw some of the thread. I wrote a micro site about bird mites a few weeks ago because a few people seemed to report an increase in them.

They are mites and not bugs and do not look anything like bed bugs as you will see from the pictures. The control of them is also completely different to bed bugs.

Now bat bugs on the other hand look very similar to bed bugs and without a microscope and entomology taxonomy key it is unlikely that most people could tell the difference. Just as with tropical versus temperate bed bugs the definitive signs tend to be things like the length of hears on the side of the head in proportion to the width of the area they are attached to.

As for control it is again something that is not really a home solution, seek professional experienced help. I don't say this because PCO's need the work its because we tend to look at the details and spend the time to work things out. Most people would be amazed to hear that about 95% of my cases start with examining the exterior of the property and then talking to the occupants.

To put bat bugs into perspective I have only had one suspected case in the last 5 years and then it was so sporadic that I was not prepared to drive the 150 miles each way to get samples. Treated once and problem was dealt with.

By all means PM or email me.

I am most likely taking a break from the forum for a few weeks as I am snowed under with work and could do without the extra stress.

Back soon though.

David
www.bed-bugs.co.uk
Bugalina

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 21:07:27
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Bat Bug or Bed Bug.....they are very close relatives. Bed Bugs are a direct decendant of bat bugs. There was a couple, homeowners from Kentucky who had a bat bug infestation last October. Even though the bats were killed off they continued getting bitten, the woman more than the man. The bugs infested their home and their cars and bit the woman so much she went into something like an anaphylatic shock. She was hospitalized for 3 days. I spoke at length on the phone to the man. For a few months we spoke. I don't know if they stayed in the house. They spent thousands of dollars and had numerous treatments...And although they lessened the population they could not completely eradicate them. I haven't spoken to him since last November. I think bat bugs must be taken just as seriously as bed bugs. I think not enough is known about them to say that once the bats are gone they will no longer seek out humans. There are too many unknowns to make blanket statements. If bat bugs were so different from bed bugs than how come they transferred over to humans when primitives left the caves??? This is the theory of the beginnings of bat bugs. If bed bugs are so adaptive and become so quickly resistant to pesticides than why wouldn't they adapt easily from a warm blooded bat to a warm blooded human, after all , blood is blood. "Bat bugs should fail to thrive, even if they have access to human blood" Quote from Pollack....imo not enough is known to make a statement like this, and if this were entirely true than Howard and Helen from Kentucky should have solved their problem easily....well after removal of the bats and thousands of dollars in treatments they were still infested as of last November......I would have another sample examined and get second opinions.....
willow-the-wisp

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 21:55:28
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Thanks all great read! I almost lost track of time, wote a post to you, lost it accidently insterad of time and can'trewrite it all jsut now.
I promise to thank you all in a better fashion by tomorrow for such good and timely info.
paulaw0919

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 22:13:34
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Good for you!! I never did get to identify them as of yet. I know I have them according to the PCO. I have not been able to catch one with positive ID. We live kind of in the country. I know we had bats in the back yard for about two/three weeks. I heard tehm every night at dusk. Then one day the noise was gone. In the meantime I had stayed in a hospital for three days. My mom who lives in a condo came up and spent the week here. Then low and behold about three weeks after that I found out about my infestation. No signs of batgs in the attic as far as we can tell. But the first treatment we had them treat it just in case. The latest treatment yesterday (4th one) they treated the attic again, this time doing the whole flooring. So I don't think I'll never know for sure. Batbugs, hospital, mom.... But I did do some research on batbugs. TO the naked eye they look exactly like a bedbug and their habits and feedings are the same. Under a microscope the hairs on it are longer and the head is shaped slightly different. Good luck to you and at least you have one burdon off your back.
willow-the-wisp

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 22:27:25
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paula ... do they adjust from BAT time feeeing,in the day,to Nigh time
feding when they only have a mere human to tortcher? If not --then you can gauge it. I'vewondered this before. had you come across that info in your meaderings on bats and their bugs?
willow-the-wisp

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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Jul 27 2007 23:11:26
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I had feared I had lost this reply to the thread--not so ... Just back from diner to discover that I should have left "cklicked," instead of right "kloped."
this post. This is a more proper reply to so much kindnesses and info:

BUGGEROFF, Hi and thanks! I recall something about the post you made, yes.
Of course if the Bat bugs wind up being spred in whatever fashion, be it not cathing them in time or turu a human vecor, then at least you'll know you are welcomed here and may have use to stick aroud. The elimination of them is similar, once they have transferred to the human host, to some degree anyway it is I've been told.

David: thanks for your post! inadvertantly or on pourpose you answered my question as to wheter or not I had Bat and Bed bugs in a concurrent infestation. No I did not. So whatever it was on those few bed bugs that looked like little wings may well have been soley from the result of my squishing them with the weight of my body, rolling over as I had that night, on heavy plastic I had lain on my bed as I was oil painting all day.
I was so beat I jsut slept in my cothe for a few hours. That choice I made, cleariing off the plastic and taking a nap as oppossed to cleaning the bed made, it possible for me to discover my bed bug day's perhaps even weeks before I might have otherwise.
It wis 3mm painter's plastic--not painter's tarp.
Sleeping on heavy plastic sheet on top of bed killed 2 of them. It is a method I accidentlaly disciverd to monitor the matress for bed bugs. if you suspcet you may have them but can;t find them--sleep on the plastic by cutting it to fit 90% of the bed and tape down only the cornes. Allow the bugs to cet on the plastic--and you'll confuse them. Some will die--and then you'll know. )Patent pending I wish. lol)
Thanks David for giving me my answer, (and paula too inserted for continuity since this post was late in arriving I read you have a clue. I see bugalina knows of the possible idiology of the pest.)

This thread reminds me of the orderly fashion we must sometimes go through to get the pest under control and some of the heroic measures, people such as "S," our "bite researcher" go through, to help device methods hofully lessening the anguish we hapless suffer's unforutnatily often have to bare.
Not to mention the on the ball Entomologists working near round the clock for us.

So facinating too, were the Pollack message's and Rollo's distinguished and precise comments so much so that I lost track of time and almost "missed an engagement."
paulaw0919

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Jul 28 2007 6:48:41
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I was told from the PCO that they feed at night just like bedbugs...but that could be incorrect...WHo knows how they got here...Mom, hospital or my crappy siding and gutters that the bluebirds are on all the time. I can't wait to get the siding and gutters done. We needed so bad anyway and were putting it off. But nowwe're forced to loan and do it now. Loan went thru last night. SHould have $$ within the week, hopefull start the project next week. Too scary financially though.
Bugalina

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Jul 28 2007 7:27:31
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I think it is misleading to tell people who have bugs sucking on them , in their beds, that these same bugs will fail to thrive once the bats are gone....I don't think so. First off, as a child I was in many a rural area, we went to campgrounds and we toured many caves. I have never heard of Bat bugs coming to suck human blood. Now , all of a sudden we have this epidemic of bed bugs and some people are being told that the bugs that are sucking their blood are bat bugs, not bed bugs. Sounds possible, but what is the reason for this sudden desire of bat bugs to leave the bats and transfer to the humans??? If this were so common, how come it is only starting to happne now? Howard from Kentucky, who was told that the bugs that sent his wife to the hosp. and cost him thousands of dollars to exterminate, had been living in that same home for many many years. So, now after he purchased some second hand furniture from an outlet that does business with a local motel chain, he gets bat bugs. I smell a "bat". Pollack tells this guy that the bug he ID'd is a bat bug and must not have come from his extensive travels, but, rather it came from his attic.
How long have you been living in this house buggeroff? Why all of of sudden are bat bugs crossing over to humans to eat their blood in such large proportions? I am not denying that these blood sucking bugs are very possible bat bugs, but what I am saying is that bat bug or bed bug....they are coming into our homes to feast upon our blood and I highly doubt it that once the bats are removed that the bugs will "fail to thrive"....If bed bugs and their closest ancestor the bat bug, were so difficult to adapt, then why their fast paced resistance to a pesticide that hasn't been used on them for over 40 years....Is this the " I want my cake and eat it too " attitude of some "experts".....I would take bat bugs just as seriously as bed bugs. Once they are in my bed, sucking my blood, I would not fall prey to misleading advice that says Oh get rid of the bats and the bug will fly out with them. This is, imo, speculative, and not based on hard solid fact. Our fellow sufferers, Howard and his wife, had just as much trouble getting rid of their bat bugs as we do with our bed bugs, long after the bats were killed off. I think we are seeing a something happen in the "bug" world that we really cannot explain away so easily.. I think anyone who has bats nesting in their belfrys should get rid of them...pronto...but I don't think bat bugs care if they have to cross over and suck our blood, I rather think they are adapting very nicely to doing so.
buggeroff

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Jul 28 2007 8:06:57
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bugalina, I don't plan to take bat bugs any less seriously than bedbugs. I think the conclusion has to be that bat bugs may infest your house as bed bugs do. They can certainly show up in your bed to bite you - I've been bitten. Many of the things you have to do to get rid of bed bugs also apply to bat bugs, but alone, all that is not enough. You also have to get rid of the bats and treat the attic.

The one or two hopeful notes are (1) bat bugs don't really want to be eating people (though, as I know from personal experience, they will if there's nothing else around). Whatever evolutionary twists may have occurred 20,000 years ago, today's bat bugs are not especially equipped to be happy in people's houses and (2) since they haven't survived multiple bombardments of insecticides in their travels from apartment complex, to hotel, to airplane, to house, there may be a slightly improved chance that they don't come from a pyrethroid-resistant population. The chemicals that a PCO has in her arsenal might actually kill them. Otherwise, bat bugs are generally pretty bad news, it seems to me.

bugalina wrote: "then why their fast paced resistance to a pesticide that hasn't been used on them for over 40 years"

I guess I don't understand what you mean. Are you writing about DDT? The resistance to DDT in lots of insects wasn't sudden - DDT use was widespread and of fairly long duration and quite a number of insect species developed resistance. I don't know if the resistance remains, after 40 years of DDT non-use, but I think that an adaptive feature, once acquired, would not readily disappear.

As for my house and my bats, I've had this house for 2 1/2 years. The bats may have gone away as long as 18 months ago or they could be living here now, so it's not at all clear that the bat bugs have left the bats. It may well be the other way around - the bugs have come looking for me because the bats moved on. There could be a zillion bat bugs up there or the ones I found could have been the sorry remnant of a dying colony. I have not seen a bug, alive or dead, since the end of June, but I've been bitten twice since then.

PCO coming Monday.
willow-the-wisp

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Jul 28 2007 12:37:04
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point here ... since there are so many cases of bed bugs ... people abandoning ship--it is possible that bed bugs left are also seeking out bats as hosts and that the bats, are now being bitten (in more cases than before--by actual bed bugs, not bat bugs). I'm suggesting that the two may eventually get intertwined in infestations sometimes ... and the longer the epidemic is left to go unchecked--the more and more likely this is and could occur.

A point of HOPE!

Since... the sub species of bed bug (the tropical bed bug) attempts to interbreed with the Temperate bed bug ... it is possible and not too un-feasible, that eventually, bat bugs and bed bugs will attempt to interbreed. it will likely be unsucessful, but, I hope, as in the case of of tropical bed bugs (males) attempting this mating with the temperate bed bugs, and, in so doing somehow makes temperate females Bed bugs somehow sterile that the same will HOPEFULLY occur in this possible scenario: of bed bugs,also invading the bats habitat ie-when people abandon ship.
They say the y don't have good eyesight ... lets hope someone either looks into this possiblility or tht it naturally occurs and DOES cause sterility and not yet another form of Cimex.
Always a small possiblity there. And if so--I hope it is always a sterile result created in such a remote but not impossible scenario.

The tropical bed but I'm told look less like a bat but and yet they attempt to interbreed with the Temperate Bed bug. Would not the BAT and BEd bugs--who looke even more similar--attempt someting similar???
Bugalina

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Jul 28 2007 16:50:03
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buggeroff.
"The one or two hopeful notes are (1) bat bugs don't really want to be eating people (though, as I know from personal experience, they will if there's nothing else around)"......Its not logical to then say that in order to stop getting bitten by bat bugs, you have to get rid of the bats..as you will now be the "other thing when nothing else is left! Better advice would be to get MORE bats , if anything...I of course say this facecouly because I have misgivings about the data you have been given. And why all of a sudden after 2 and a half yrs do you start to get bitten... The good news is that you are taking them just as seriously. I don't think there are enough long term studies on this to make any factual statements, imo. During my bed bug trauma I had Dermtologists , entomologists, scientists, and exterminators all give me wrong info.....I would swear this on a Bible....I would be very careful from here on in about taking precautions when you travel....unless and until you find a whole bunch of bugs in your bats that are hanging in your belfries..
Willow, you make an excellent point....
willow-the-wisp

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Jul 28 2007 21:37:53
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Man's best friend â€¦
The Dog â€¦. Dogs have been with us for at least 10,000 years perhaps as many as 30 or 40 thousand years, in some extinct and still thriving cultures, according to some accounts anyway.

DOGS, RATS MICE And even SQUIRLLES ... even cats:
They can be bit, I would suppose, by all blood sucking Cimex. DOGS Cats, Rats and mice all have been around for eons and in close proximity to man. Ok not so much with cats and squirrels. Squirrels are rodents and hang out near bats at times depending upon the habitat of the particular bat and the squirrel

I hate having to say all this because some people are so attached to their pets--and their pets â€œcan do no wrongâ€ Not so. Their pets can, just as many of us unfortunately are in the wrong place at the wrong time--i.e. usually on the bed while CIMEX is in the home.

A few people have emailed and pmâ€™d me, telling how theyâ€™d seen and had even taken Cimex off their pets. We know, abandoned houses can continue to feed and thrive on rats and mice--until the mice and rats--and now bats we hear--leave or are sewed away efficiently and respectfully/safely and within the law (in the case of the bat.)

I've heard NYC, in particular, has an increased rodent population-nearing explosion due to some odd NYC rules on pesticides. This is often with respect to businesses, including restaurants. It has something to do with the pesticides allowed. We had one member complain greatly over how this had greatly affected their business.

(This just may be a Manhattan-law thingâ€”I donno.

Dear buggeroff, my understanding of your situation is like this:
a--you clear the bats out and then spray the attic and hope like hell the bugs In the attic stay and die up in there, however; they are already on the bed in the living space:

b--You would need to nearly simultaneously treat entire house, and attic like you've got blood sucking whateverâ€™ infestation going on. Some say it could have been bed bugs in the belfry with the bats. I'd get a second opinion too, however; I never even got a first one so Iâ€™m not practicing what I preach. I had no way to do thatâ€”at the correct time.
Should you catch some moreâ€”you might want to go that route?
Whatever I had--is gone. Itâ€™s been gone for over 3 months close to four--so halleluiah almost on that point...

Pollack, Cain, Rollo, of course, they, are all right on the mark--you have to rid yourself of the BUGS up in the belfries--whatever they are first: Bugeroff, got that already. I got the impression Pollack meant that treating the home too, accordingly, was important. Had he communicated that? I donno. I thought he had.

So buggeroff--I hope youâ€™ll have time for all this; you seem scientifically inquisitive if not a downright science/research type of a guy/gal. At least I got the fact you fully understood the FAQS hereâ€”I hope you have read them all.
I have RN training and experiences, and was always into taking other classes like Anthro, and Astro, and Psych, Sociology classes too.
I suppose it is something good yet to have that knowledge with the basic Biology classes needed for a degree in healthcare--I still flipped when I got the infestation. Mine was surface to the utmost â€¦ and huge too--so immediate, nearly desperate measures were in order and were taken. SFDPH had not followed their protocols and the hotels in the downtown area anyway--here, are run, seemingly (largely) by a bunch of near Neanderthals.

Generally, some more info for all of those living in areas that are more crowded (at this point in time, so far, anyway) we are the ones that need it the most:

If, it is sucking your blood ... kill it or catch it and have it EYE--DEE'Dâ€”if you can.

I was left wondering, how many infestations I had and had there been BAT and BAT bugs Iâ€™ll likely now never know.
On the surface, I had assumed it all BED bugs when indeed they were quite possibly BAT bugs mixed in for good measure. Now I know that since you need a microscope a taxonomy list and an itsy bits ruler (not to mention an extremely keen eye) to make that determination.
(Two samples may not have been quite enough for you buggeroff, donno. â€œMost consistent withâ€ as Polack said â€¦. is a bit too general if you feel you really need to know. Iâ€™m not feeling you are that interested and of course, it does not matter all that much now. So long as you follow it, and I have no doubt you indeed will do that what was advised: Rid yourself of the bats responsibly, clear the attic with a PCO and [treat the house accordingly too].

Perhaps, your history given to Pollack was such that he was tipped off into the "Bat" rather than the "Bed" bug direction. Sean Rollo at the bed bugger resource dot com who posted above, may, have additional ideas of who might EYE DEE them, for you if you catch one or more again. Sean is Canada based, I believe.

Good news ... for all whatever they are â€¦ If, they are Cimex, hungry, and out in the daytime ... you literally can let them come wobbling over towards you and easily scoop them up into a clean jar with a good lid. To kill them, add some 91% r. alcohol, but only when you are done examining them in person for a while. Put a bit of cardboard in the jar.

That examination process made a big difference to and for me.

Bed bugs are currently considered as a nuisance pest only, rather than a disease-spreading pest. (WE DO NOT KNOW THAT FOR SURE. Therefore on that basis, I did some limited experiments and I was extremely careful to set-up and clean up, being as it were as prepared for all types of accidents and unexpected outcomes. The test, themselves mostly superficialâ€”took up only 25% of the time. The clean up and set up took up the rest.

I have a right not to be eaten?
Right? Iâ€™m O.K with what I did. I was like a bit of a bite researcher and a bit of a sleuth on bed bug movements and what might attract and repelâ€”AND KILL THEM.
I had limited resources, samples and knowledge.
So what. Somebodyâ€™s got to do it

I'm afraid folks living out in the country especiallyâ€”or in places where Bed bugs have not yet become such a problem may be getting misdiagnosed as to which brand of Cimex their homes have. Donno.

But since they look all look so similar there is no blame, just more education needed, perhaps in identification of all three types in some PCO companiesâ€”again donno.

Buggeroff: Donâ€™t yet totally right off the Waldorf yet, and Paula, donâ€™t assume too deeply, you did not get the bugs from your Mom's visit. I know your going to see Grandma--if it is the same house or if Mom visits Grandma, you will need to do an inspection of her place too. Professional would be best, but your on the ball, and so, if you had not considered thatâ€”there are loads written info on detection of Bed bugs hereâ€”and elsewhere. Lots of the PCO companies and videos out will have some info for you I hope.

Question: Do all three of these Cimex emit odors of attraction for each other, or is it just the temperate bed bug? Again donno--probably so.

Food for thought: and not blood for any BED, BAT bug.

Donâ€™t let them bite. Bites = life and birth for them, and scars of all sorts for the sufferer living in the â€œINFECTED ABODEâ€ (in a way your house and your belongings have the CIMEX diseaseâ€”not you.
Yes, buggeroffâ€”it is not your â€“our--faults.

Our nest(s) are being overrun by a true bug that lives on our blood. Man, himself is the vector of his own disease carrying bugâ€”CIMEX.

Thanks Bugalina for bringing your vitality into the conversation--it is much appreciated. You are the â€œQueen of the Forumsâ€ in my books
as always ...........W

I have finally found a scientific thread where others are more actively participating rather than simply me. Bully for me! (Iâ€™ had left some wild meanderings on genetics and bed bug sex habits here in the past. I must say they were somewhat jumbled and jiveâ€”but I needed that and this site allowed my meanderingsâ€”even some gleaned some info out of them. Eventually myself included.

All: From the â€œonslaughtâ€ of all of this â€¦ I know Iâ€™d have to bone up on and extrapolate and suggest as much as I could to figure these buggerâ€™s out.

The first few weeks it is advisable to stay away from other people as much as possible. Even if many of us feel the need to want to be closer or to flee away. Not good. Do your homework and prepare for the battle guys/ladies. Oh Iâ€™m not suggestion you read those threads, as they were at times quite wild and were not meant for much beside speculation. Often tooâ€”my points wee not clear and how could they be. This is a very complicated problem
Cimex. BED, BAT, WHATEVER.
I think an adaptive stratagem in evolution does hang around until it begins to eat away at the progress of a species, and morphologically the roots often remain to reactivate back to such changes for some time. Thank you buggeroff for that point. I agree.

These Cimexieaâ€”or however youâ€™d spell the plural of the blood suckers--if they are all so similar, have, Iâ€™m totally guessing about a 250% chance of more, of likely adapting to changes in most natural environs than do we. This is because of the short life spans and the little babiesâ€”a multitude of them: 250 or up to 500 babies born per each femaleâ€™s 2-year max life span.

Bugs, in this respect fall somewhere in the middle of developing tolerances and mutations, as germs. Some of them replicate every 5 minutes or less, if given the chance, so, what ever the percent that they can evolve or adapt is much larger and variedâ€”per germ. (Iâ€™d not want to stick my neck out more than I have already, but, on an average most often, itâ€™s got to be at least a hundred fold higher than Cimex.)
These numbers would need scientific measurement based on how fast they replicate, mutate, and adapt.
For a while, at least we have a slight edge, I that lots of plastics and surfaces Cimex has never encountered 50 years ago are now commonplace in our homes. The plastic Ziploc is just one of them. It is a tool of isolation and exclusion small baggie for capture, big baggie to keep out of our belongings respectively. We have others. My point is they will adapt faster than we will.

All guessesâ€”no doubt I have no delusions about that, and Iâ€™ve no hard-core data to back All that up. However, see--I do not need that exact info â€¦
Researchers looking into it allâ€”hopefully soonâ€”would need it or discover it.

They will eventually adapt to mechanical measure to some degree I feel and so I disagree that it is impossible. It is more accurate ( I feel) to say highly, highly improbable.
I hoe we kill them off way the hell before that even starts to happen.
I like the 5-year mark for a lot of predictions involving Cimex:
Eradication of Cimex, could occur within 5 years.
So far I see such little evidenced this ever happening I get a bit nauseous and am drawn back to the battle field like it is the same day I discovered I had hundreds

ON MY BED and DRAWING MY Lifeâ€™s BLOOD RIGHT OUT OF ME!

HINT: Keep your beds isolated, your eyes peeled, and try to have a fun and carefree life:
Non-Sequitar endingâ€”I know.
Love â€¦

Willow
buggeroff

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Jul 29 2007 19:09:33
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Wow, Willow, that was quite a post - a lot of ideas there! I had a boatload of work to do last night and fell asleep before putting together a reply.

I speculated about the dog and cat thing. I have a cat. She's old and creaky and going a bit blind and deaf. Whatever she wants, she can have, even if it makes my life more difficult with the BBs. I was wondering, though, whether the IGRs (or whatever is in there) in treatments like Frontline, Program and Revolution have an effect on bedbugs. My cat has been dosed with both Frontline and Program, but I would think a bat bug might be more interested in a cat than in a human. I donâ€™t know whether anti-flea chemicals kill on contact or on ingestion or if they simply repel without killing.

You are right that Rich Pollack's email: "more consistent with" seems a bit uncertain, but his voice mail message and other parts of his written correspondence didn't leave much room for doubt. Not a bed bug, he said. For what itâ€™s worth, all the information I provided him pointed toward bed bugs, since thatâ€™s what I thought I had. I will certainly show my two remaining specimens to the PCO (I canâ€™t believe I threw the rest away! I was so sure I knew what they were!), but I kind of think that bat bugs instead of bed bugs only means you have to deal with bats and attics IN ADDITION to everything else so, youâ€™re right â€“ Iâ€™m not sure it makes much of a practical difference if not all of them are bat bugs.

I'll have to see what my two PCO candidates suggest about treating the house/attic. My own view is that the whole place needs to be treated at the same time or the bat bugs will just come downstairs. And anyway, I already know that at least some of them are already here - I saw them up close and WAY too personal. The laundry is done and most of my clothes, blankets, spare sheets, etc. are stowed away in those big ziplocs. I had never seen those XXL Ziplocs before - they're great!

I listened last night to two interviews that a PCO/entomologist named Richard Cooper did. One was on the Leonard Lopate show (NPR) at the link on the FAQ page. The other was at a link on Cooper's own website. It was an interview he did with a guy from a publication called Pest Control something. Both pretty interesting. Cooper doesn't seem to think that, at this point, insecticides are the most important part of the battle. He's very interested in decluttering, mattress encasement and other, low tech, physical approaches. He didn't mention DE, but I'll bet he uses it. Heâ€™s also pushing some special mattress covers he has tested that he says have better zippers and are â€œbite proofâ€. I didnâ€™t find where he explains the importance of this, but Iâ€™m thinking he means that the bugs canâ€™t bite a person through the cover (and thus survive and breed inside the cover. Now I am wondering what makes something â€œbite proofâ€. Deep padding? Would a quilted, washable cotton mattress cover (the kind non-bed bug owners use!) do he job? Truthfully, I donâ€™t have a deep need to spend a few hundred dollars on mattress covers if what I have will do the job.

On that PCO publication website, thereâ€™s also a short interview with Michael Potter (U of Ky) talking about insecticide resistance. Heâ€™s doing a seminar with Cooper at the Park Central Hotel in NYC on August 7 on BBs. Audience is expected to include hotel industry types, PCOs and government health officials. A little part of me would actually like to go, but I donâ€™t want to stay in a hotel!!!
willow-the-wisp

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Jul 29 2007 20:22:32
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Yeah â€¦ the hotel would scare me. I take it you are in the tri state? I donâ€™t recall--or was it Virginia? There have been so many here lately buggeroff --especially since your first comment on the blog... I went back and saw it.
CAT may need to go elsewere for a few days, she's old ... if he says one day make it 2., but don't tell her I said that! ;)And--if for any reason you think the cast is more of a target--she needs a vacation unti lthe bugs are gone--ask the Bat Guy if they are attacked. I'd agree with your lodgic however bat and cat ... maybe more similar to taste--they don't bite--they can't they peirce and can't do much else.
Advantage? it may help a little. I know that much--a little and about the other stuff I 'm green as in void of info on them. Anything more that 80 -120 bucks for a fancy mattress cover that's bug proof is likely too much. National Allergy has a very similar item and if you order it on the front page of this blog--you get a 10% slash--and slash is exact y what you need price wise â€¦ but not in your actual cover. It has to be like one of those or Cooper'sâ€â€â€ They may even be the same oneâ€™s I donâ€™t know. But Pillow covers are needed too! Pillow washin and drying vewry very well. Each day an/or night I guessâ€”the bugs come out and nit pick into everything--including you.
They could not claw their way out of a paper bagâ€”but they could find a tiny little crack to get outâ€”trust me on that! 100% sealed only please

And of Cooper, he seems to be one of the most down to earth too, as I see it. Ecco-wise and theory-wise. But since I'm in SF--I Donâ€™t know for sure â€¦.
WHAT I DO KNOW FOR SURE IS â€¦ that a cotton mattress pad is not what you need--unless ... unless ... kitty might think even possibly think of clawing the underside of the box spring. if--there is ANY chance of that you would want to put the cotton on the very bottom of the box-spring--so that kitty won't rip your expensive new covers. They go onâ€”you either tape well or Vaseline well the area where the zipper closes = 100% "entombment." Try eve nto grease and tightly sealâ€”say a full inch tape it past where the zipper meets the end of the line so to speakâ€”keep air out.
I guess itâ€™s all in the FAQS.
YMMV.

What to do first? Indeed--In your case, I would â€œsuggestâ€ you attempt to get the BAT bug guy to realize you already have a BED bug like infestation going on.
I'd highly recommend this: Your bugs are already downâ€”perhaps youâ€™ll want too keep those down downâ€”and spray-drive those coming down back upâ€”it is a bit complicated in your case as such. They tend to not spray all the way up a wall for BED bugsâ€”in your case they may already be in the ceiling too in the voidâ€”so that may need good treatment.
A dust perhaps that he has and can drill into it? Going
I donâ€™t know for sureâ€”check it out! If he does thatâ€”he may do in while in the attic as if into the attic floor. No need for you to go up there huh? You have enough of them coming for you already.
Youre a smart guyâ€”I think you got all this.
If not ask ask ask!
a--get rid of the bats and nearly as simultaneously as you can--have him/her spray the house, to some degree as if for bed bugsâ€”and take his lead if he also has special BAT bug spray protocols too. Iâ€™d say redirect him in all areas you see fit to, if you feel a bug will be hiding there--especially the bed an all areas you saw them.

b--then have him work upward and not downward, as I think Pollack "hinted" at in email. Perhaps the conversations you two had were what the gaps seemed to be?

Definitely work upward. And â€¦ if it is true that there are â€œzillions" of BUGS in the attic. As I recall one of your possible suspicions isâ€”then of course he'd need to spray even more up there. His repeat performances, every 2 weeks (or even less than that if it is very warm) i.e. every. 10 days apart--start at the bottom again, and work upwards!
Right? I hope that helps:
Read and the FAQ on bed isolation 101, and the other bed isolation FAQ â€˜s too.

Youâ€™ll see it at the bottom of the list below: all these you need to be familiar with: â€œMilk his chemicalsâ€ Sounds like you have had some dispersalâ€”so the wetter or dustier at lest for the first treatmentâ€”likely better. He wonâ€™t overdue it to the point of dangerous right? No I hoe not.
The FAQ page has more tooâ€”and I do think you should read the whole thingâ€”twice so you donâ€™t slip up. Everything is 100% secured bed laundryâ€”caulking and whatever the measure you do--give it your all but do soâ€”safely and let the PCO know, asâ€”he will be your partner, I hope. (It doesnâ€™t always work out like thatâ€”but try. It is best!)
Buggeroff, Best to you and please do keep us informed!--You are still a star here!

Trust me.

http://bedbugger.com/faqs/stuff/

http://bedbugger.com/faqs/

http://bedbugger.com/faqs/travel/

http://bedbugger.com/faqs/thebed/

POST SCRIPT: Also--the bed covers are â€œcoveredâ€ in part two. I save the best for last, but you would isolate the bed FIRSTâ€”likely hopefully sooner than later and if the PCO will spray itâ€”you should ask each as you interview themâ€”they breed a lot! Time is of the essence!However--if hwe will spray the mattress and say's he msut--then you must wait before coveringit. order soon Igfuess. On-line and all it is a msut!As arew the Pillow cases too!

http://bedbugger.com/2006/11/02/faq-how-do-i-protect-my-bed-from-bed-bugs-part-two-choosing-a-mattress-cover/

BEST TO YOU!

Willow

PPS--Nomo? Any assistance for this guy, I missed? Chime in and so I hope do many! if so add it (below)
Anonymous

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Jul 29 2007 21:46:19
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Hi buggeroff,

"Would a quilted, washable cotton mattress cover (the kind non-bed bug owners use!) do he job?"

No. It has to be a full, zippered, encasing that covers the whole mattress and made of a material that cannot be penetrated by bugs, some type of vinyl or similar or a fabric that is certified to have a pore size that is smaller than a bed or bat bug. Ordinary cotton is not adequate, plus a mattress pad does not fully encase the mattress. Rich Cooper and others have suggested that some bugs can bite through some fabric covers, but people have had success with different types of covers, not just his new line of encasings, which he is selling, as he is now selling a PDF guide to how not to get bedbugs from a hotel. As is the right of any American indeed. :)

It sounds like you are in that research stage we all go through when we find out something is biting us in bed. I hope you can engage a really wonderful PCO so you can get this over with quickly.

I don't have pets, but I've seen many pet owners recommend Frontline or something similar for theirs during the bedbug fight. I don't think there's reason to suspect it would be different for bat bugs, but perhaps your PCO will have more information.
Nobugsonme

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Jul 30 2007 8:35:01
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Buggeroff,

I am glad you contacted Richard Pollack and got some information.

But please--in future--do not post emails without getting the explicit permission (in advance) of the other party.

I see that you removed his email address and yours, which is good, but actually forwarding the content of emails without asking is generally considered a breach of netiquette.

It would be okay to truly paraphrase the important information contained in the email.

Thanks!
Bugalina

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Jul 30 2007 9:04:59
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buggeroff.....I would have more confidence in Cooper's covers and Natl Allergys Covers if they would state that not only could a bug not bite thru the product , but, more importantly they could not PASS THROUGH the zipper..That is much more important. I have the covers from Nat'l Allergy and they have an inside coating of a teflon sort of coating. I highly doubt that any bed bug or bat bug could stick their probosic thru this barrier. However, the weak area has always been the zipper. My question for anyone making these bed bug protective covers is ..Can a small nymph, a first instar for example, pass thru any area of the zipper??? Including the closure and anywhere along the zipper. Also, I have to say that so many people express fear about using chemicals around their pets, but yet they treat them with frontline. I know frontline must be an effective product, but when I read the instructions and it said that I should protect myself by wearing gloves when I apply it , well it alarmed me. Here I am being told to liberally spread a chemical over my pup, into their pores, but I am being warned to wear protective gloves. In my mind it goes to show that people display all kinds of contradictive behavior. We have to use chemicals to kill these bugs. Esp. if the infestation is dug in. Cooper is correct, imo, that clutter is a contributing factor in maintaining a bed bug infestation. I have always been an advocate of "clearing the forest" in order to fight the bugs. However, chemicals cannot be ruled out, they are a necesssary evil in killing off bed bugs. My only hope is for a decent chemical to be introduced onto the market that will eradicate these insidious, heinous, monster bugs so that people can once again go on a vacation and/or stay in a motel/hotel without bringing home an infestation. Bed Bugs take all the joy out of traveling..
Nobugsonme

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Jul 30 2007 9:36:45
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Bugalina,

I have been in correspondence with the NA product developers, asking them about the zipper issue and also talking about the need for effectiveness testing.
buggeroff

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Jul 30 2007 10:07:53
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nobugs: Your point noted. Please delete the email text, if you think appropriate.

hopeless: I wasn't suggesting cotton mattress pad alone, but rather on top of vinyl. I was focused on the idea of "bite proof" not "travel proof" in my discussion of Cooper's covers.

bugalina:

Cooper does claim that BBs can't pass through his zippers. In the second interview I mentioned, Cooper makes it clear that he considers the zippers on most covers to be flawed and that he and his manufacturer have made changes to their zipper design specifically to prevent BBs from getting out.

All:

The first PCO came by this morning and found a bat in my attic. He could see where the bat probably came in and also thinks he figured out how the bugs got from where the bat is to where I found the bugs (my bedroom). Encouraging the bat(s) to leave and closing off the entry points doesn't seem difficult. He spent about 45 minutes at my place, peering around with his flashlight at the bed, the curtains, the window and door framing, the baseboards in the bedroom, around the attic access door, in the closets. He walked around the outside of the house and looked at the eaves, the capping and the drip edges.

PCO is proposing to treat the entire house with BP100 fogger and basically nothing else. He sees no parallel between bat bug infestation and bedbugs (which he acknowledges are a nightmare for a PCO) which concerns me a bit. He uses HPX Intruder and propoxur against bed bugs but isn't proposing to do anything but fog for my bat bugs. His company will not use carbamate - for anything. It will not treat inside the air conditioning ducts. On the other hand, he guarantees his work and says he will come back if that is what it takes. While that sounds great, I don't like it because it means I either have to get bitten again or I have to find a bug to get them back to the house - it won't be a planned series of treatments every two weeks (or whatever).

Also, he seemed really frightened by Drione and told me to get it up (except behind electrical outlets and other enclosed places. On the whole, I appreciate this company's reluctance to use chemicals that don't seem necessary. In the overall scheme of things, that's exactly the right attitude from an environmental point of view. It's hard for me, personally, though since I want these bugs dead, dead, DEAD - preferably right this very second.

Quote for the work was $750. This PCO is a local company, not part of a big chain like Orkin.

Another PCO coming Wednesday.
Bugalina

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Jul 30 2007 11:41:33
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buggeroff...This guy was brave...Was he at all concerned about carrying a bug out with him? Or, being bitten by a bat? I think you have to do what makes you the most comfortable...If you have any other dead bugs I would have asked him if he could identify one to confirm what you have been told, that it is a bat bug. Did he acknowledge that bat bugs commute from belfry to human bed ?? Did he have any knowledge of why they would do this??? This is a very interesting situation. I had communicated for several months with a couple from Kentucky who had their infestation confirmed as bat and not bed bugs. They must have had a terrible infestation because the wife was hospitalized and they did everything they could to get rid of them...I know they greatly lessened the population ...our last comminication was that they were fighting the infestation in their vehicles . I emailed him rather recently but he didn't respond. I am very glad tnat Cooper is saying his zippers are impassable..at any stage I hope...Nobugs is on the case inquiring about this ...I am so glad about this as what good is anything if a passage remains. I would be interested to know if the PCO who came out today can id the bug . His treatment modes seem very different. I would ask him that if they are biting you, in your sleeping area, wouldn't that now qualify them as an exbat bug turned bed bug??? I agree with you about chemicals..if they can get rid of them...with as little use possible that's better...but...do they guarantee this...IN Writing......If it ain't in writing...it ain't......