Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » General Topics
Article on BB dogs
(22 posts)-
SearchandDestroy
senior member
Joined: Sep '10
Posts: 452offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Nov 11 2010 21:51:52
#
Login to Send PM
-
btaggart
junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Nov 11 2010 23:10:52
#
Login to Send PM
Great article. This is exactly the reason the canine industry needs national satandards and certifications
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Nov 12 2010 2:10:53
#
Login to Send PM
btaggart - 1 hour ago »
Great article. This is exactly the reason the canine industry needs national satandards and certifications"National satandards"... that's funny
The answer here isn't the creation of an alphabet soup of certification agencies... Some of the worst K9 teams in NYC claim to be "certified" by a national organization... It is hard to legislate integrity.
Unfortunately, an annual certification framed on the wall is no guarantee of reliability or accuracy in the field.
Consumer education is the answer here.... Ask your PCO to "Show Me the Bed Bugs"... There should be a visual inspection in any identified locations.
If the PCO can show us evidence of live bed bug activity in the identified locations... Do we really need to examine the dog's paperwork?
The K9 team is an excellent screening tool, but our treatment decisions should be made on the basis of physical evidence, training, operator experience and statutory requirements.
Sometimes we need to trust the dog and "Nuke em from orbit... it's best to be sure"
In other cases, we need to be highly disciplined, evidence based and act with great restraint before initiating treatment.
Consumer satisfaction is a much better indication of K9 team performance than company participation in a private trade association program.
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,755offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Nov 12 2010 2:39:56
#
Login to Send PM
I'm working on a post about this one.
-
friendhasbb
junior member
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 45offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Nov 12 2010 16:39:42
#
Login to Send PM
This article was very relevant to our experience. We have had 4 inspections in the last 4 weeks since we discovered some suspicious looking bites about 5 weeks ago.
Inspector #1 brought a bedbug-sniffing dog which "alerted" in 3 locations, but neither the Pest Control Operator nor the dog handler did a visual inspection which we have since learned is crucial. When asked later they insisted it was unnecessary.
Inspector #2 from a company (which has been around for 80 years and does not use dogs) came a week later, inspected carefully for close to 2 hours and found no evidence. His company would not treat without evidence.
Inspector #3 was #2 who returned at our request a week later, inspected again and found nothing.
Inspector #4 from a 3rd company (in business for over 100 years which also does not use dogs) came a week later. That PCO also inspected carefully for 2 hours and found no evidence. His company would not treat without evidence.
With each passing inspection, and lack of further bites, we are feeling somewhat relieved. But even without a costly chemical treatment this has been a costly ordeal in terms of anxiety and money spent on inspections, encasements, monitors, PackTite etc (we are happy to have the encasements and PackTite which will give us peace of mind in the future).
This week's inspector said it is quite possible we had a false positive from the dog. Unfortunately, I think we told the dog handler where our recent visitors had slept before he took the dog on a tour of our house. Those were the places where the dog alerted - it is possible there was a "Clever Hans" effect whereby the dog reacted to cues from its handler. I suppose it is also possible we had a very light infestation which we vacuumed up and threw out in the frenzy of housecleaning and decluttering that occurred after the dog alerted. It is possible we had bites or irritation from some other insect such as carpet beetles or mites. We may never know. As my husband said, it's hard to prove a negative.
-
old timer
Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 595offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sat Nov 13 2010 1:55:43
#
Login to Send PM
There is no doubt that there are VERY poor K9 teams out there, and some are down right thieves.
That being said; a NESDCA or any other annual certification is a waste of a piece of paper and not worth the ink that it is written with.
Here's why:
1) A certification is a point in time test. The moment the team passes the test and leaves the facility they are no longer "certified" as the team dynamic could break down at any point after the test and before the next one, yet consumers would view them as being "good" based on their certification paper.
2) If the team/company is not regularly testing their dog via their own double blind or other style tests then they would have no clue how well the dog was actually working.
Do we need some sort of standardized test that would allow teams to evaluate their dog's accuracy? You bet !!! And it needs to be something that can be done on a regular basis (weekly? monthly?) and not annually.
Do your research. If a K9 team does not attempt to visually verify the dog's alert then you are wasting your money.
Sean
-
jessip
newbite
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 14offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Nov 14 2010 20:16:05
#
Login to Send PM
Scent detection is not something new, and it's been around for numerous years. The national standard for Law Enforcement is an annual certification of their team to ensure they meet standards set forth by organizations and not the Law Enforcement agency themselves. Any time a case is challenged that was made by a scent detection K-9, the handler must provide training records and their teams CERTIFICATION. The certification shows the team meets standards for scent detection and the training records show that the team is maintaining not only training but a level of accuracy in their training.
Law Enforcement has several certifying organizations that are acceptable on a national level, state level, an in the court system. Their certification standards are very clear and concise of the standards that must be met in order to certify with each organization. Currently I have found two organizations for bed bug detection, IFEDCA and NESDCA on the internet. I looked at both organizations; NESDCA has certification standards that are clear and concise listed in their by-laws. IFEDCA has no certification standards (that I can find) at all. Also reviewing the standards from NESDCA they are very similar to Law Enforcement detection standards and require Law Enforcement with a K-9 background to be evaluators during certifications.
Law Enforcement detection handlers are asked all the time to "identify" narcotics, explosives, or body parts (cadaver). Unless the handler has a scientific background (schooling) and has identified the chemical compound to positively identify a narcotic or explosive, they had better not positively confirm the identity of the substance their K-9 alerted to. That's a job for scientists. A cadaver dog handler should not identify a body part unless they are a forensic pathologists. Why are people asking detection dog handlers to identify bugs? That's for trained pest control or a entomologists to determine.
If a certification is so important for drug dog teams that work day in and day out combating narcotics, explosive detection dog teams that are called upon when a suspicious package is found in your place of business or child's school, and cadaver dog teams who help solve crimes, why is it so bad for bug detection?
Detection teams are a resource to enhance a visual inspection that is limited or not possible. Any team can miss a target odor or have a false alert, dogs are not perfect, but none should have numerous false alerts or a low "find" percentage. That's what certification are for, and in Law Enforcement, K-9 teams seek certifications to validate their teams training.
jessip
-
old timer
Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 595offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Nov 14 2010 23:22:06
#
Login to Send PM
No one will argue that ongoing testing of the K9 team isn't important. My point is that if you are choosing a company solely on whether or not they are "certified" then I would suggest that you are missing the point. An annual certification is a point in time test.
Even with law enforcement dogs there is regular ongoing, in house training and verification. It is this regular on going training and verification that is most important.
I would like to see an international 3rd party organization that allows proctors to once a month evaluate a K9 team for accuracy. At the end of the calendar year a certification would be awarded to teams that have passed the criteria. This would be something with some teeth to it, and something a consumer could rely upon.
Sean
-
oldtimer
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 2,553offline
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Nov 15 2010 0:41:16
#
Login to Send PM
The problem with this is real world vs controlled "certifying" times. I'm human and can miss just like a dog can miss. But put a bug in a controlled setting and I'm banking on finding it just like the dog would in a controlled test. Why is it that I typically find evidence within 10 minutes or less when an infestation is present but yet a lot of handlers can't seem to locate the bug in the defined search area? Not to boast but do I possess some magical power I'm not aware of? I don't post every story but I do 7-10 inspections a week these days behind the dog and the dog is wrong more then any company or media outlet will have you believe. Why does one of the best bed bug guys in the city choose not to own one of these magical beasts if they are so accurate?
The biggest part of the problem for me is when the dog is wrong and alerts to something that isn't there. I'm more inclined to believe the dog will alert to bed bugs when they are inside a home. I mean, after all this is the only way they get to eat. But how can you accurately tell someone that there are bed bugs in a said location without finding anything visually on your own? We are looking for bed bugs in a room right?... WHY must we be led to think we are hunting for Usama Bin Laden? The handler is taken to a location where the dog suspects bed bugs are hiding. Do you really think or want the educated consumer to believe that this dog can always smell what we can't see? The educated know that in order to be successful in treating bed bugs you have to locate them in most cases ( not just relying on dried residuals) to kill them. I have always said be an" urban hunter", "seek and destroy". Well, if you can't find them, how the hell are you going to kill them? If they are so deep that you can't visually see them, how on earth does freezing work when you need direct contact with both bugs and eggs in order to kill them? People really need to think about all this stuff!
Fact: From the files of a PCO who has done hundreds of inspections behind K9's. 95% of the time I'm called in to do a visual inspection after a K9 has "hit" inside a home I find NOTHING. Help me further understand why this is the only dog in sent detection that needs to be rewarded with food rather then praise from its handler? How can I be working behind all these dogs and find the numbers so flawed? Certified or not because I have been behind just about all of them in my area and keep finding the same results. 50/50 you get lucky the handler finds something. Its hit or miss ... roll of the dice .... 3 rings for a dollar and try and get it over the bottle kid.
Just one mans opinion.
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Nov 15 2010 1:46:10
#
Login to Send PM
jessip - 4 hours ago »
Law Enforcement detection handlers are asked all the time to "identify" narcotics, explosives, or body parts (cadaver). Unless the handler has a scientific background (schooling) and has identified the chemical compound to positively identify a narcotic or explosive, they had better not positively confirm the identity of the substance their K-9 alerted to. That's a job for scientists. A cadaver dog handler should not identify a body part unless they are a forensic pathologists. Why are people asking detection dog handlers to identify bugs? That's for trained pest control or a entomologists to determine.
jessip
What a ridiculous rationalization for incompetence.
We don't need a bench warrant to look for a bed bug !!!
"Why are people asking detection dog handlers to identify bugs?" Hmmmm.... Let see....
Maybe it is because people are shelling out hundreds of dollars to a professional that claims to be a BED BUG INSPECTOR...
Would it be too much to ask if the consumer expected this pest management professional to be trained to recognize a bed bug if they happen to see one?
Should the consumer be expected to hire an entomologist each time a NESDCA dog identifies an alert location.
If an organization was going to "certify" a bed bug inspector that uses a specially trained dog... Wouldn't you think they would require their "certified" inspectors to be trained on the visual identification a bed bug?
What kind of self respecting pest management professional would look at a client and say... "I am not qualified to identify the bug you are paying me to find"?
To carry your analogy further... If a drug dog alerts to the trunk of a car... There is no need to open the trunk and look for a contraband substance... We'll just take you to jail... We would need a scientist to identify that bale of marijuana in the trunk... We are a certified dog team...Scientific journals report that a similar dog was 98% accurate in a laboratory study... No need for a trial... We used a "certified" dog.
How is that different from a NESDCA dog team that doesn't even bother to break out a flashlight or lift a cushion after their dog has identified a location that supposedly has live bed bugs or eggs?
Performing a visual search of any identified location is a critical quality control procedure... A K9 alert is not equivalent to a visual identification.
If a K9 company tries to tell you that visual identification is unnecessary... Hang up the phone and call a different company.
Ask your PCO to "Show Me the Bed Bugs?"
Treatment decisions should be made on the basis of evidence, training, experience and statutory requirements.
A framed certificate on the wall is no guarantee of accuracy or reliability in the field... Some of the worst K9 teams in the country are certified teams
-
overload
newbite
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 8offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 21 2010 0:02:23
#
Login to Send PM
Amazing, two different names on different posts and I know the guy
Make up your mind.In fact, I know of many who tell me they use this site under different names.
And I'm suppose to be the nasty guy on here.
I assume this site was started with good faith.
But then what happens?NOBUGSONME,,please e-mail me. I'll tell you the truth. Your head will spin!
-
overload
newbite
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 8offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 21 2010 0:13:00
#
Login to Send PM
No conflict.....
It's your K-9,
You make money for inspections ( hopefully TOTALY Independent)
You make huge money!Go hire a Real Trainer and Ento and get certified in the real world, NOT PAINT CANS!
It's been fun, see ya in two years.
PS: For the people who know who I am, I will continue to do your inspections for free.
I warned you of this years ago. -
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 21 2010 2:19:00
#
Login to Send PM
overload - 2 hours ago »
Amazing, two different names on different posts and I know the guy
Make up your mind.
In fact, I know of many who tell me they use this site under different names.
And I'm suppose to be the nasty guy on here.
I assume this site was started with good faith.
But then what happens?
NOBUGSONME,,please e-mail me. I'll tell you the truth. Your head will spin!Overload,
Are you referring to Jessip and BTaggart? -
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,755offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 21 2010 2:31:51
#
Login to Send PM
I am going to remind all of the canine scent detection folks that the general public's reaction to your conversations generally ranges from bewildered to uninterested.
Yes -- we have every interest in whether canine scent detection works, what methods are best, which teams do the job, who verifies alerts visually and why this matters.
Unfortunately, you're not generally the best folks to educate us about all of that because your industry is so cut-throat. Most of your discussions are murky, mysterious, and most of all, marked by nastiness and infighting. This infighting means your messages often do not enlighten consumers, and they give lots of people headaches.
Please try and keep your discussion confined to the Official k9 Industry thread. When you communicate on other threads, please remember that the rest of us are interested in good information, support, and not in attempts to further individual agendas or careers.
And overload, I am well aware that some individuals have posted under multiple names. I have banned a number of them. No offense, but some of the k9 scent detection crowd seem oblivious that their writing is a dead giveaway as to their identities. One angry snowflake has tried to log in with no fewer than four different accounts, and has been banned each time. I'd know his verbal ticks and obsessions a mile away.
Let me be clear, some canine scent detection pros are very helpful, informative and supportive to people with bed bugs (and a number have posted above).
However, being uncivil, attacking me or other members of the forum, and hiding behind one after another anonymous username is not permitted. You'd be surprised how often I catch people doing this, and I do watch these things. When others catch them occurring, they notify me also.
I assume this site was started with good faith.
But then what happens?I'm not sure what you are implying about the website, but please do respond to my email and talk to me directly.
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 21 2010 3:47:52
#
Login to Send PM
Thanks
I agree... I end up feeling rather bewildered at times as well.
-
btaggart
junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82offline
Posted 2 years ago
Wed Dec 22 2010 0:10:23
#
Login to Send PM
K
DougSummersMS - 21 hours ago »
overload - 2 hours ago »
Amazing, two different names on different posts and I know the guy
Make up your mind.
In fact, I know of many who tell me they use this site under different names.
And I'm suppose to be the nasty guy on here.
I assume this site was started with good faith.
But then what happens?
NOBUGSONME,,please e-mail me. I'll tell you the truth. Your head will spin!Overload,
Are you referring to Jessip and BTaggart?I have only posted under the name btaggart
Just to clear the air on that one
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,755offline
Posted 2 years ago
Wed Dec 22 2010 2:06:38
#
Login to Send PM
Thanks, btaggart.
-
done in
junior member
Joined: Nov '10
Posts: 36offline
Posted 2 years ago
Wed Dec 22 2010 16:24:32
#
Login to Send PM
Killer Queen: just read your post about K9 inspection. Where I live I do not have access to this. After reading your post I'm glad I don't. I might have tried this. Original info I read said that the dogs were rewarded with food. Big Red Flag. It's Pavlov's dog. How long before the dog realizes that if he wants food he needs to alert. I'm sure there are reputable K9 companies out there, but I was having a conversation with my son when I first started with this problem. His thought was that as this gets more severe, there will be lots of scammers out there. I don't live in New York, our media does not give this problem a lot of space. No K9 handlers have shown up in my area yet. As the problem gets worse I'm sure the fast buck artists will arrive. I won't be getting a K9 inspection. So glad I read your post.
-
btaggart
junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82offline
Posted 2 years ago
Wed Dec 22 2010 23:56:49
#
Login to Send PM
Done in
Not all k9 teams are frauds. Theere are oganizations that help keep this industries standards high to help ensure consumer satisfaction
-
done in
junior member
Joined: Nov '10
Posts: 36offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Dec 23 2010 17:52:23
#
Login to Send PM
Btaggard, as I said in my post, I'm sure there are reputable K9 companies. How do you know who the rip off artists are, and who are for real? I pray there is an answer to my problem, but really don't know if it's in dogs that are rewarded with food.
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Dec 23 2010 21:21:58
#
Login to Send PM
KQ and others disagree, but praise and toy reward trained K9s are prone to the same errors as food reward dogs.... The key is the skill of the handler and appropriate quality control procedures.
Food reward isn't the source of issues with reliability... poor handling practices are responsible.
K9 teams are a great screening tool, but alerts should be verified with a manual search in any identified locations.
-
member
Joined: Mar '09
Posts: 281offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Dec 24 2010 12:31:57
#
Login to Send PM
Done in, I have performed many inspection some with a canine some without. I have performed inspections after other companies have performed their own(Visual) inspection and recommended treatments based on their findings. Guess what on more than a few occasions these clients do not have bed bugs. When I ask the client if the company showed them the evidence they supposedly found the answer is almost always no. The few times they did show the evidence to the client I determined it was not bed bug related.
So in the end it always comes down to physical evidence, find it with a canines nose and then a humans eye or without a canine and just a humans eye. Just make sure the company knows you will expect to see the evidence.
Reply
You must log in to post.
