Are we being overly cautious here about using DDVP Strips? « Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums

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Are we being overly cautious here about using DDVP Strips?

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Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 14 2010 18:25:30
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A few recent threads talked about the dangers of using DDVP strips in a home setting, basically suggesting that almost a complete seal is needed (caulking, tarps, tape, etc) or the fumes can be dangerous. The message seemed to be that the average person using average precautions should not attempt to use them.

The label, on the other hand, seems to suggest that these concerns may not be warranted.

Exerpts from the Nuvan Label:

http://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/uploads/product/1017/files/nuvanprostrip.pdf

"....NUVAN PROSTRIPS are for use by pest management professionals. Place
PROSTRIP in areas including garages, sheds, attics, crawl spaces, pantries,
cupboards, closets, museums, museum collections, animal buildings,
barns, storage units, trash bins, grain bins, pest traps, utility boxes, vacation
homes, cabins, out houses, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, boats,
farm houses, ranch houses and other such places..."

"...Within homes, use only in closets, wardrobes, and cupboards. Also for
use in storage units, garages, attics, crawl spaces, boathouses, museum
collections, garbage cans, trash dumpsters, animal buildings, milk rooms,
catch basins, bulk raw grain, storage bins, enclosed utility boxes, reptile
houses, and terrariums..."

"...Museum Collections Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day
Use PROSTRIP to protect museum collections and other similar materials
from damaging pests when this is a concern. Place PROSTRIP in close
proximity or within collection boxes using care to avoid contact with collectable
and valuable items..."

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My reading of the label suggests that one could use ProStrips within a home setting as long as it is not in a living area. This could be a closet, wardrobe or cupboard (as stated on the label), but it seems it could also be a room that is locked off from the living area during the treatment period, such as a vacated bedroom. Using a larger area like this would give us an opportunity to treat larger pieces, for example a couch.

Anyway, would like to get some more feedback on this from those that have used or are considering using the strips. Also, maybe some of our PCO's will chime in as well.

Speaking of PCO's, a link to Jeff White's review of DDVP strips follows. In general he seems quite enthusiastic about the strips as another weapon in our arsenal against bed bugs.

Jeff White's Video: http://tv.bedbugcentral.com/index.php/2010/05/products-to-treat-personal-belongings-for-bed-bugs/

I am certainly not saying throw caution to the wind with these strips (or any pesticide for that matter) but on the other hand I would hate to eliminate some of the ammunition we can use against these bugs if indeed there is no reason to.
spideyjg

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 14 2010 18:45:34
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Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

That is why the caution.

In case you missed it.

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 14 2010 18:59:32
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I didn't miss "Occupied by People for Less than 4 Hours Per Day" and in fact I exerpted those words from the label.

My reading, however, was that the "occupied for People for Less than 4 Hours Per Day" referred specifically to hanging the strips in a living/working OCCUPIED area, not the areas I mentioned such as closets, cabinets, a sealed off room etc`. I could be wrong but this is how the label read to me.

Specifically, the label warning regarding the "less than 4 hours per day" reads as follows:

"Museum Collections OCCUPIED (my capitlization) by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day
Use PROSTRIP to protect museum collections and other similar materials
from damaging pests when this is a concern. Place PROSTRIP in close
proximity or within collection boxes using care to avoid contact with collectable
and valuable items."

And again, I am in no way suggesting throwing caution to the wind. Just want to get more information on what is a reasonable way to use these strips.
spideyjg

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 14 2010 19:43:44
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It is a heavier than air fumigant that sinks from where it is hung. Air an water are both technically fluids and take the shape of their container.

It will leak out into the surrounding air out through cracks and or through your floor to other locations.

If in a closet it will leak out the bottom and begin to fill the room.

Since it is heavier than air just imagine trying to hang a hose pumping liquid in the closet. Ain't very contained is it?

Jim
buggyinsocal

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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 14 2010 20:03:59
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Keep in mind that there's a reason that the strips are only supposed to be applied by licensed professionals.

DDVP strips offgas a chemical fumigant. Since it's a gas, the stuff doesn't stop at the closet door.

Professionals who are doing their job have to calcuate how much of the stuff is safe to use in the volume of the space available.

In addition, professionals should be able to assess the structure of the place being treated to see if a particular structure is likely to allow the fumigant to migrate to adjacent units.

In the average home, the closet is attached to a part of the building that clearly constitutes a structure that is occupied for more than 4 hours a day.

In a museum, on the other hand, there may be a remote storage unit that isn't occupied. (I know this is an odd example, but I'm pretty sure I remember those strips being used in the tack shed at the summer camp I went to. A tack shed is a great example of a structure that has people in it but isn't occupied for more than 4 hours a day. Frankly, people probably spent a total of .75 hours a day in there: 15 minutes in the morning to get the feed and tack, 15 minutes in the middle of the day if they needed to resaddle and bridle the horses, and 15 minutes at the end of the day to scoop the food again and put the tack away.)

They're safe for use in detached garages unless you're living in an illegal apartment in one.

But closets, being attached to bedrooms or living rooms, are a very bad choice for using DDVP strips in since:

1. the gas fumigant does not stop at the barrier between the closet and the bedroom or living room

2. the bedroom and living room are definitely occupied structures.

3. since the fumigant is heavier than air, it's quite likely to reach higher concentrations in the places where pets usually live. Since pets weigh much less, my guess is that they are far more vulnerable to organophosphate poisoning. (I would also be worried about birds who are generally much more sensitive to some substances than even cats and dogs)

4. with closets in multi-unit buildings, using DDVP in off label ways is even more dangerous--unless you've warned every neighbor whose apartment shares any airflow possibility with yours about what you're doing.

5. Point 4 is particularly true if you're not completely up to date on precisely what the signs of organophosphate poisoning are.

DDVP is a great tool; but there's a reason that it's not available in every US state and why some formulations of it are only available to professionals.
thebedbugresource

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 0:09:03
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I don't think we can be cautious enough with DDVP. Most people think all pesticides are fumigants when in fact only a handful of products used today in North America are actually fumigants. Essentially a fumigant is a gas.

The bottom line is that DDVP is a fumigant and they are by far the most dangerous substances used by PCOs (DDVP, Methyl bromide, Sulfuryl flouride, phoshine, etc.) and ought to be given the utmost respect.

When we here of DIY mishaps that end in death they are most often a misuse of a fumigant.

Sean
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 5:55:55
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Sean: I don't think we can be cautious enough with DDVP.
----------------
My title phrase was " overly cautious, as in more cautious than label directions which I assume have passed the mustard in terms of safety. But perhaps a better title of this thread should have been, "What exactly do the label instructions on DDVP products mean?"

And this is just one example -- so when the label says it's OK to use in closets, perhaps the manufacturer should have defined whether or not those closets can be adjoining a living area, or whether they are talking about a closet in an unoccupied or partially occupied (4 hours or lesss per day) dwelling or place of work. And if they are permitting use in closets, pantries, etc., where people live, then what precautions, if any, should be taken such as sealing off the closet, etc.

We are told again and again to follow the label instructions, but it's clear to me from reading some of these labels -- as well as from this discussion -- that the label can be open to multiple interpretations. A better written label seems to be needed. At that point, we could discuss whether or not we agree with the label, but at this point I'm not even sure we can agree on what the label actually means.

Richard
buggyinsocal

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 8:02:50
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I would imagine that the labels on pesticides that are labeled for consumer use are basically designed in the same way that most documents in which legal departments have had a hand in writing are written: to protect the manufacturer from liability in cases in which someone misuses the item and then tries to sue the entity that created the item.

I don't think that the label of DDVP needs to be any more explicit. The current label is very clear: don't use this product inside any structure that is occupied for more than 4 hours a day.

If you look at the labels for most pesticides, nothing else currently being used in homes has any warning like this. The fact that the pesticide has a warning like that on the label is a pretty strong warning to consumers who do their research and who compare those label restrictions to the labels on other pesticides.

I'm not suggesting that some people won't misread the current label. There are also people, who, for example, apparently do need the label on coffees that are purchased at STarbucks or McDonald's, to warn them that the beverage that they have purchased containing freshly steamed milk is, in fact, hot.

But a label with more specific instructions would likely increase the number of rules lawyers who argue about "Well, the label didn't say that I couldn't use it in a car, and my home is an RV, so it's like a car, and it's not a structure because it moves" sorts of things. We're, frankly, lucky at this point that DDVP is still labeled for any use in the US by professionals or by laypeople. Unless we get a new chemical pesticide that slots into the same set of uses when it comes to bed bugs, I would prefer not to see this one disappear from the arsenal. And I suspect that a label that is any more explicit would lead to even more misuse than the current label.
bugnut

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 8:04:34
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I agree - I am currently treating my car (for one week of now - one strip hanging from the center with a battery operated fan inside - wil leave another 2 weeks) and a closet in the LR which has been sealed off on the inside with plastic sheeting and duct tape. The door is also closed. Above the closet is my office and below is my basement (in which I spend less that 20 mins a day). It is in the corner of the house with 2 outside walls. As it is summer and I do not have central A/C My LR windows are open on all three sides. Dog is not allowed in LR (indoor electric fence so no mishaps).

I open the door occasionally to see if I can smell the DDVP and to check the seal. So far, no leakage I can detect. We are aware of the dangers and side effects and are on the alert in case of headache, nausea, runny nose etc.

If I just read the label, and did not read this site I would have been much more casual about my usage of the DDVP strips. I read Tracy's post about how she used them (she is a Chemical Engineer) and the precautions she took and I did the same. I though long and hard about using them in this way and the care in which she used them also and I am confident that I am better off the way I set up these treatment areas than Joe Shmoe who picks them up from Home Depot and goes "oh beg bugs - I'll stick em in my closet"

You can be sure if I think anyone is getting ill, or I can smell it due to leakage, I will put on my respirator and air it out ASAP.

Just my 2 cents.
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 8:28:43
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Buggy: The current label is very clear: don't use this product inside any structure that is occupied for more than 4 hours a day.
----------------
Apparently it isn't `clear to everyone else. Certainly not to me, and certainly not to "bugnut" in the post above, where he states: "If I just read the label, and did not read this site I would have been much more casual about my usage of the DDVP strips." So, at least in this little unsciemtific survey that leaves you in the minority.

You have one interpretation of the label, but another reasonable interpretation is that the "4 hours a day" limitation is for living/working spaces and not for isolated spaces like a closet. I posted a link to complete Nuvan label for those who are interested. Here it is again:
http://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/uploads/product/1017/files/nuvanprostrip.pdf

Again, I'm certainly not advocating a cavalier approach to these chemicals just trying to find out exactly how they should be used. "Read the label" is a mantra that is repeated over and over again. But if the label isn't clearly written then we are just left to our individual interpretations. And IMO the label is not clearly written.

If I have time -- and that's hard to find these days with all the cleaning, bagging, etc -- I'll try and reach someone at the manufacturer who may have some answers, although last time I tried I simply got someone who knew about as much as I do (not much) who was just reading the label back to me !

Richard
buggyinsocal

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 8:35:24
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I'm guessing that any one at the company tasked to talk to the general public isn't going to give you any more information than is on the label since the company itself is the entity most likely to be worried about being sued if someone misuses something.

Since the label language has been approved by the company's legal department, I would be shocked if you got anything different from that out of them, as always, I'll be curious to see if you do.

I would like to point out, however that the post from Sean above is pretty good information as far as I'm concerned. When the pros here--who, remember, are not getting paid for posting on these boards--weigh in on a subject, I tend to treat their information as pretty reliable. They have thousands of hours of experience working with the substances in question/professional training and education (in some cases including post graduate work)/ and often long years of professional relationships with colleagues who also work with these substances.

Part of what I hear in Richard's posts is a frustration that the specific information he wants isn't clearly articulated in language that doesn't require him to, for example, compare what's said on the label of this chemical to another label.

What professionals say since they have that larger body of knowledge is a short cut around having to do all that comparative reading and evaluate each source relative to another.

Just a thought.
bugnut

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 8:52:06
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Sean is right - the "misuse" of a fumigant. However, I do not think the label clearly states the extent of the misuse. I find this unusual as most labels are overly cautious about such things. Just placing a strip in a closet without sealing it off completely is misuse IMHO.

Again, I can't thank Tracy of this site enough for really emphasizing the dangers of working with DDVP and the precautions to take. I feel much more comfortable using it in the manner I am based on her experience and details on how she used it.
Nobugsonme

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 11:13:16
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As Richard stated, the label for Nuvan Prostrips says,
"NUVAN PROSTRIPS are for use by pest management professionals."

One reason for the caution is that most of us here are not qualified to tell you more than the label does about this pesticide and its safe use.
bugnut

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 12:27:09
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That is true - but the Hot shot strips are the same product - only the label differs - and it is for sale in Home Depot. That is where the danger lies.
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 12:31:56
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Understood.

But the problem is that their are professionals and there are real professional. And unfortunately, the latter group just might be in the minority. How many times here have people posted about "professionals" doing a really bad job, including giving bad information? Unfortunately they are not all KillerQueen's or Jeff White's.

In an ideal world, professionals have the right training and have the right answers. In the world we live in, this is not always the case and therefore forums like this are a valuable resource for lay people like most of us to become more educated in these issues. Not the only resource but hopefully one. That was my intent on posting this thread.
killthemall

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 13:35:23
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I called the company that makes HotShot Pest Strips and Bug bomber.

The rep told me it was a hazard to misuse HotShot strips (off label usage) because they were carcinogenic (cancer-causing) with prolonged exposure. Who knows exactly how much exposure you need, but I personally am going to act on the safe size and not use them.

As far as the bombers, he also said you cannot use it in cars, as it is a fire hazard and the pressure can cause windows to burst in a car. Is this accurate?
spideyjg

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 15:22:22
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killthemall - 1 hour ago »

As far as the bombers, he also said you cannot use it in cars, as it is a fire hazard and the pressure can cause windows to burst in a car. Is this accurate?

Yes on both counts. The propellent can be flammable and the buildup of pressure from releasing compressed gas could blow out the windows.

Bug bombs have blown up buildings.

Jim
Nobugsonme

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 18:04:04
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But -- my understanding is that Hot Shot sells a bomb/fogger for use indoors against bed bugs. And that experts tell us bombs/foggers are not a good idea for bed bugs (can make bed bugs spread in your home, and won't get rid of them).

So even using products according to the label may be a bad idea.
Nobugsonme

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 18:11:34
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Richard56 - 5 hours ago »
In an ideal world, professionals have the right training and have the right answers. In the world we live in, this is not always the case and therefore forums like this are a valuable resource for lay people like most of us to become more educated in these issues. Not the only resource but hopefully one. That was my intent on posting this thread.

Hi Richard and bugnut,

I get it, believe me.

My advice would be to ask Jeff White if you have questions about DDVP. He's a pro and he is a fan of DDVP.

Most of us on Bedbugger are not pros. Those who are, they may or may not recommend using DDVP.

If they don't, you're getting your advice from laypeople. Laypeople who are, in the case of Nuvan Prostrips, telling you to go against the label's instructions (since the product is labeled for pro use).

Do you see the problem with that?

If someone who is known to you to (a) be a professional (as Jeff White is), and (b) is an expert on this product (as Jeff White does seem to be), then I would take their advice. Jeff has posted elsewhere on the forums about DDVP but if you have specific questions after reading those posts and watching his videos, I would approach him directly.

I would be wary of advice on a product like this which goes against the labeling instructions if you are not absolutely sure someone is a professional AND knows DDVP well.

In this thread, the only known professional, Sean Rollo of the Bed Bug Resource, is advising caution. That's a valid viewpoint that counts for a lot in my book.
Eve

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 18:25:50
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Nobugs, I don't think anyone here disputes that "professional only" branded products should be used exclusively by those licensed to do so. The products we're referring to are those sold at Home Depot to ordinary consumers. If we're talking about ordinary consumers you can't get more ordinary than at Canadian Tire (the land the licenses very few chemicals for pest control use). Here is their ad:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/2/OutdoorLiving/MosquitoPestControl/InsectControl/PRD~0593601P/Vapona%252BInsect-O-Strip.jsp?locale=en

I really doubt they're aiming this product at the PCO professional. This is strictly DIY. And I've read the labels on these products. There are warnings but not the "Don't try this at home" type. You'd be amazed what I can spray on my mattress that is totally on-label. It would be a perfectly valid (though perhaps mistaken) conclusion that these are products that are reasonably safe to use by the typical householder within the parameters advertised.

Eve
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 19:23:30
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Thanks Eve for the perspective.

Opinions are an important part of the equation, but also important are exactly what the label instructions mean, i.e. the official guidelines. This is what I'm addressing here, and not advocating their use one way or another.

In that light I found this thread here from 2007.

http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/ddvp-no-pest-strips-information

In this thread, “bugologist” provides us with the following link to what I presume is a 2007 (dateline of thread) EPA guidelines on these products. Not sure if the guidelines have been changed since but maybe someone can chime in.

So here are the revised EPA guidelines as of then.

http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/reregistration/ddvp/ddvp_changes.htm

Exerpt from those guidelines:

"Regulatory Changes Proposed on Insecticide Pest Strip and Other DDVP Products

New Restrictions on Pest Strips in Residential Settings
The new label language for the larger strips will state that those strips cannot be used in homes, except in garages, attics, crawl spaces and sheds occupied for less than 4 hours per day. The only pest strip use allowed in the home will be the smaller strips for closets, wardrobes, and cupboards (16, 10.5, and 5.25 g). In addition, the manufacturer will stop making the 21-gram closet strip and replace it with a 16-gram strip reformulated with less active ingredient. "

These guidelines suggest that the 16g strips (or less) can be used in the home "for closets, wardrobes and cupboards. This is consistent with the area coverage for those strips.

The larger strips have additional limitations.

Richard
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 19:36:04
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Nobugsonme: My advice would be to ask Jeff White if you have questions about DDVP. He's a pro and he is a fan of DDVP.
--------------
Unfortunately, Jeff states clearly on his video to contact the manufacturer for all these types of questions And so the merry-go-round goes...

Look, I'm not advocating the use of these strips but simply trying to collect information and then come to some kind of a decision *for myself* whether to use them and *how* to use them.

Part of that process is trying to decipher what I find to be very cryptic label instructions although the link in my post above seems to clarify that somewhat at least as of 2007. That has been the gist of my posts.

And yes, an equally -- perhaps even more important part of the equation -- would be input from professionals like Jeff White, who perhaps might be more forthcoming off the record and not in a public forum especially with such a new product.

At the end of the day I will be hiring a PCO and any DDVP strategy will be run by that PCO.

Richard
Eve

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 19:37:24
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Oh don't get me wrong, Richard. My aversion to pest strip technology dates back to the mid-80s when I bought one of these to control pesky house flies in my apartment. I hung one up, per instructions, and went to bed. When I woke up (barely) I had to struggle out of my room and when I recovered I dashed back in to enclose and discard the strip. The house flies, meanwhile, were merrily playing tag around the thing.

I'm skeptical big-time about the adequacy of the safety claims of a lot of this stuff. If I ever decide to have chemicals applied to my living space (for whatever reason), I'm having me in some people who know what they're doing and if they say "stay away for 4 hours" I'll be away for at least 8 or 12.

And I am thinking about it if the bed bug problem survives my discarding my bedframe. First the dog to see if they're still there. And then the PCO to apply residuals so they can pay the ultimate price for attempting to bother me in my new bed.

Eve
spideyjg

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 22:38:07
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Bugologist is Jeff.

Only for use where....

Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Don't understand what is cryptic about that.
bugnut

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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 15 2010 22:43:21
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Well my closet is occupied for less than 4 hours each day but I made sure I sealed it inside completely first. As DDVP is a fumigant and a gas the door alone will not prevent the gas from escaping somewhat into the space that is occupied by people for more that 4 hours each day.

Believe me - I wish I could use it for everything, but I do think in needs to be handled with great care and the label does not emphasize that.
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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 16 2010 0:09:12
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Richard56 - 4 hours ago »
And yes, an equally -- perhaps even more important part of the equation -- would be input from professionals like Jeff White, who perhaps might be more forthcoming off the record and not in a public forum especially with such a new product.

I think this is exactly so.

It's kind of my larger point: individual professionals would probably be kind of irresponsible if they came on the forums and said, "do this, this and this with DDVP." There might be a liability involved on their part.
Nobugsonme

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 16 2010 0:10:34
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Eve - 5 hours ago »
Nobugs, I don't think anyone here disputes that "professional only" branded products should be used exclusively by those licensed to do so. The products we're referring to are those sold at Home Depot to ordinary consumers.

I was specifically referring to Nuvan, the label of which Richard quoted above, and which does state it's only for use by professional licensed applicators.
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 16 2010 5:13:38
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Spidey: Occupied by People
for Less than 4 Hours Per Day

Don't understand what is cryptic about that.
Quote
-------------------------
As stated above, the 4 hour limitation is for the LARGER strips. According to my read of the revised 2007 EPA guidelines, the 16 g strips (used in "closets, wardrobes, and cupboards" have no such limitations. Here is the link to those guidelines again: http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/reregistration/ddvp/ddvp_changes.htm
spideyjg

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 16 2010 9:19:17
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If you don't want to follow the labels and minimize your exposure to pesticides then you will be the one to suffer.

It still comes in sizes too large for an occupied dwelling and you want a blanket statement that DDVP can be used in a occupied dwelling and that is wrong!

Stuff enough small ones in a place and you can exceed the fumigant pumping into the air from one of the large ones.

Jim
Richard56

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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 16 2010 11:01:09
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At this point I think I will go with our host's (nobugsonme) statement that "most of us here are not qualified to tell you more than the label does about this pesticide and its safe use." I think that includes both us unless you are a PCO.

From the beginning, I was trying to limit the discussion to what the LABEL, and then later what the EPA says about its use. And not in giving my non-professional opinion on whether or not DDVP strips should be used or how.

Back to the label and EPA -- I have no idea where you came up with your last statement based on the EPA link I posted earlier.

In any event, hopefully those interested in this subject will read carefully both the label and EPA guidelines, consult with their PCO, and perhaps do further independent research -- and then come to their own conclusions on whether or not to use DDVP strips and how to use them.

Let the mostly non-professional opinions fly, but I've added as much as I can for the moment regarding what label and EPA guidelines say.

Richard
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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 16 2010 14:28:11
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Richard56 - 3 hours ago »
At this point I think I will go with our host's (nobugsonme) statement that "most of us here are not qualified to tell you more than the label does about this pesticide and its safe use." I think that includes both us unless you are a PCO.

Let the mostly non-professional opinions fly, but I've added as much as I can for the moment regarding what label and EPA guidelines say.
Richard

No I'm just some dumbass mofo who won the war over 2 years ago. Studied my ass off on everything BB related, geared up and live in a pest free home now based on the knowledge gleaned.

Again BB free for 2 years now.

Based on stories read about treatment by some "PCOs" I'll go so far as to say I know more than some.

Over the last 2 years I read every thing in depth posted by the real experts here and try to pass it on.

WTF was I thinking.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/spideyjg/smilies/ATT423268preview.gif

BTW read Sean's, who is an entomologist and a bona fide BB expert, comment again....

I don't think we can be cautious enough with DDVP. Most people think all pesticides are fumigants when in fact only a handful of products used today in North America are actually fumigants. Essentially a fumigant is a gas.

The bottom line is that DDVP is a fumigant and they are by far the most dangerous substances used by PCOs (DDVP, Methyl bromide, Sulfuryl flouride, phoshine, etc.) and ought to be given the utmost respect.

When we here of DIY mishaps that end in death they are most often a misuse of a fumigant.

Sean
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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 16 2010 21:13:24
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Just to clarify,

I was expressing concern about laypeople who might tell you that you should be less cautious about a product like Nuvan Prostrips (not those like spideyjg, a.k.a. Jim, who urged caution). I said:

I would be wary of advice on a product like this which goes against the labeling instructions if you are not absolutely sure someone is a professional AND knows DDVP well.

(Again, I was referring to Nuvan, the labeling instructions of which were on the cautious side, allowing only for professional applications.)

And I also stressed that we'd heard from one pro in this thread, who (like Jim), was urging caution:

In this thread, the only known professional, Sean Rollo of the Bed Bug Resource, is advising caution. That's a valid viewpoint that counts for a lot in my book.

I want to be 100% clear that I was not ruling out Jim's opinion's because he's not a bed bug pro. (Nor, Jim, was my point that, in general, any old pro is going to have a valid viewpoint, just because s/he's a pro.)

Richard, it felt like you were looking for someone to say, "don't use so much caution."

And the point I was trying to make is that if that advice -- to be less cautious -- comes from a layperson, it's not worth anything.

And it's unlikely to come from a pro in a forum such as this.

But it's worth stressing some pros (like Sean) are not going to recommend less caution here or off-forums. And that's a very valid viewpoint.

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