Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Bed bug science, "experiments," etc.

Any research on vitamin B1?

(82 posts)
  1. cilecto

    oldtimer
    Joined: Aug '08
    Posts: 4,055

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Sep 1 2010 13:23:36
    #



    Login to Send PM

    We had a recent post touting a vitamin B1 product, with the claim thstvit prevents bites. Has there been any serious science done in this?

    - Does it prevent bites or reduce reaction to bites?
    - How consistent are the results?
    - How long does the deterrent (if any) last? Taken consistently, can it outlast the life of an unfed BB?
    - Does it matter if you take a pill or administer via timed release mechanism?

    Thanks

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
    - Psalms 91:5-7

    (Not an pro)
  2. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 17:32:38
    #



    Login to Send PM

    On the advice of my Orthomolecular doctor, I started using vitamin B1, 300 mg. per day in capsule form, last summer. I was getting about 50 bites every night. from bedbugs, and extremely allergic to the treatments imposed on me by the building management.

    I encountered the pest control technician in the hallway last November, and asked him if he knew about vitamin B1. He admitted that he knew about it but his company did not permit him to talk about it. Vitamin B1 is well-known as a preventative against mosquitoes. They cannot locate their victim if they cannot smell their CO2, which is prevented by the vitamin. The same must be true with bedbugs.

    The effect of B1 was nearly instantaneous. One or two bites only for the first few nights, then nothing since! And all physical signs and smell of bedbugs disappeared. eventually.

    Unfortunately the battle with the bedbugs has left me with lupus which is incurable and eventually leads to cancer.

    Hoping someone reads this as other postings I made on the net have disappeared.

  3. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 17:48:06
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak,

    Thanks for sharing your story. (Sorry to hear about your illness.)

    The dose you were given, 300 mg/day, according to Medline Plus, was for "severe b1 deficiency":

    * For adults with somewhat low levels of thiamine in their body (mild thiamine deficiency): the usual dose of thiamine is 5-30 mg daily in either a single dose or divided doses for one month. The typical dose for severe deficiency can be up to 300 mg per day.
    * For reducing the risk of getting cataracts: a daily dietary intake of approximately 10 mg of thiamine.

    As a dietary supplement in adults, 1-2 mg of thiamine per day is commonly used. The daily recommended dietary allowances (RDAs) of thiamine are: Infants 0-6 months, 0.2 mg; infants 7-12 months, 0.3 mg; children 1-3 years, 0.5 mg; children 4-8 years, 0.6 mg; boys 9-13 years, 0.9 mg; men 14 years and older, 1.2 mg; girls 9-13 years, 0.9 mg; women 14-18 years, 1 mg; women over 18 years, 1.1 mg; pregnant women, 1.4 mg; and breast-feeding women, 1.5 mg.

    Without professional medical supervision (which I assume you were getting), I would caution anyone against experimenting with taking supplements at 300 x the RDA for an adult woman, 250 x the RDA for an adult male.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  4. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 19:01:49
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I have been using 300 mg B1 for 6 months with no effect. Indeed, with the bedbug-caused lupus, I must maintain with a supply of numerous vitamins, way beyond the standard RDA levels. With guidance and approval of my orthomolecular doctor.
    Please supply me with a single case of anyone having died because of vitamins. And I will demonstrate that millions have been killed by pharmaceuticals.

    Orthomolecular Medicine: Why Diet and Supplements are Superior to ...
    12 Dec 2010 ... Megadose Therapy Linus Pauling recommended daily intakes of vitamins C,

    E, A, B1, B2, B3, B6, B12, Folic acid, and Pantothenic acid ... Here you will find abstracts of the

    medical journal articles on supplement research. ...

    http://www.docgeorge.com/health-articles/orthomolecular-medicine-why-diet-and-supplements-are-superior-to-drugs

  5. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 20:44:53
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Correction:
    "I have been using 300 mg B1 for 6 months with no [adverse] effect. Indeed, with the bedbug-caused lupus, I must maintain with a supply of numerous [other] vitamins, way beyond the standard RDA levels. With guidance and approval of my orthomolecular doctor.
    Please supply me with a single case of anyone having died because of vitamins. And I will demonstrate that millions have been killed by pharmaceuticals."

  6. Koebner

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 737

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 20:46:34
    #



    Login to Send PM

    B1 is a bit of a zombie - it was shown to fail as a human insect repellent in the 60s but researchers have been back a few times, always with a negative result. Sorry, bit rushed at the moment, but you can probably chase up URLs from these refs;

    "Vitamin B1 is not a systemic mosquito repellent in man." Khan AA, Maibach HI, Strauss WG, Fenley WR. Transactions of the St. Johns Hospital Dermatological Society. 1969; 55: 99-102.

    "Testing vitamin B as a home remedy against mosquitoes". Ives AR, Paskewitz SM. Journal of the American Mosquito Control Association. 2005; 21: 213-7.

    From the New England Journal of Medicine in 2002, I can provide an abstract at least; http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200211213472118

    The fact that the building was being treated at the same time as the B1 was being used very likely had a more causal link to the reduction in bite. Additionally, placebo effect is real so ought not to be discounted as a causal factor in improvement after taking B1.

  7. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 20:59:16
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak - 1 hour ago  » 
    I have been using 300 mg B1 for 6 months with no [adverse] effect. Indeed, with the bedbug-caused lupus, I must maintain with a supply of numerous [other] vitamins, way beyond the standard RDA levels. With guidance and approval of my orthomolecular doctor.
    Please supply me with a single case of anyone having died because of vitamins. And I will demonstrate that millions have been killed by pharmaceuticals.

    Hi zak,

    If this response was directed at me (as it appears to be), I want to emphasize that I said, people should not do this without a doctor's supervision.

    Which is exactly what you have -- a doctor's approval and supervision.

    People should not rush out and start taking 300 mg of B1 a day because you're doing it. They need to check with their doctors first.

  8. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 21:56:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Re the comments;
    "B1 is a bit of a zombie" "Vitamin B1 is not a systemic mosquito repellent in man." --- I can tell you that from my experience that these statements are completely untrue. The effect was INSTANTANEOUS and REPEATABLE!

    I would be looking at not IF but WHEN, ie: does the effect apply to EVERYONE equally? I would also be looking at the data for mosquitoes because that exists in quantity. And you must know that there are B1 patches for prevention against insects.

    I reject the statement: "The fact that other parts of the building was being treated at the same time as the B1 was being used very likely had a more causal link to the reduction in bite. Additionally, placebo effect is real so ought not to be discounted as a causal factor in improvement after taking B1".

    This is an apartment building, with perhaps 1/4 of the apartments being infested. Any ongoing treatments in other apartments would have had no effect except to drive bedbugs to move to new locales (ie: next door) where treatment was not ongoing. To that end, all baseboards, etc. in the building were sealed with caulking.

    There were also a large number of apartments with zero history of bedbug infestation.

    Before moving in, I was not forewarned that the previous tenant had numerous treatments, before her death. Then the apt. was untenanted for about 6 months and no one being present, bedbugs were not apparent. Bedbugs first showed themselves 1-2 months after my moving in. I suffered with no treatments for about 3 months, followed by professional non-chemical treatment like steam, then chemicals to which I am highly allergic.

    IMHO the following abstract is relevant; except that they were using 100 mg vs. my 300 mg./dy.

    "To the Editor: Fradin and Day compared the efficacy of DEET and non-DEET insect repellents. It is unfortunate that they ignored a much better repellent — that is, 100 mg of vitamin B1 (1000 times the vitamin dose). It is taken orally and is effective for many hours. (Pharmacokinetic studies are needed.) The repellent effect is attributed to a foul odor, undetected by humans, unless one smells the bottle. Biting insects, which are attracted by carbon dioxide, are repelled. Mosquitoes, deer flies, horse flies, and chiggers are repelled. It is not known whether arachnids are repelled, although deer ticks seem to be. Not only is vitamin B1 much less expensive than other repellents, but it also is nonwetting, is not oily, and is not rubbed off on clothes." http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200211213472118

    But I am particularly sensitive to virtually ALL pharmaceuticals, having been diagnosed with M.C.S., etc., I cannot perceive that any product from Bayer or elsewhere would be of any use to me. The B1 purchased from a combination pharmacy and health-food store which employs a pharmacist, a naturopathic doctor and a homeopath. And the vitamins are a quality natural-source brand.

    "Additionally, placebo effect is real so ought not to be discounted as a causal factor in improvement after taking B1."
    --- sorry I must completely discount this 'placebo effect' suggestion. Multiple attempts by a pest-control company, over a period two months failed to stop the critters from eating me alive. Then, I personally undertook the Vitamin B1 protocol with nearly INSTANTANEOUS RESULTS!

    The foul odour mentioned, was also present when I moved into my (filthy, un-inspected) apartment. That may be the BEST indicator of bed bugs; a signature odour. Some hotels actually employ exterminators who use BEDBUG-SNIFFING DOGS to detect bedbugs!

  9. DougSummersMS

    oldtimer
    Joined: May '07
    Posts: 1,966

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 14 2011 22:38:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Zak,

    I am curious about the bed bug caused Lupus statement.

    I have not seen any professional references to bed bugs being involved in transmitting Lupus.

    Can you provide more information?

    Thanks

  10. victimized

    new username: help_me
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 305

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 0:27:27
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Lupus is a very very hard disease to accurately diagnose as it can mimic so many other ailments. I know of many people who went for disability of the grounds of Lupus because it is hard to prove or disprove. As for vitamins, our bodies are pretty good at surviving even with few vitamins and it is very possibly to overdose on them.

    Proper nutrients are required from food first, then used to supplement in the event we don't get quite enough from our diets. Just because they are good for us doesn't mean our bodies really need over a certain amount. And yes, there are people who have died because of over dosing of vitamins.

    I think sometimes giving people a little information can go a long way or in some instances become a dangerous thing. It was a huge mistake making pharmaceutical ads legal as suddenly everyone started self-diagnosing based on the vague symptoms listed on TV commercials for drugs and/or imagining they had those symptoms.

    It seems really common to see that people who are very up on personal health , mental illness, medication etc. tend to find problems in themselves others simply wouldn't. Lupus is not a communicable disease, but perhaps huge doses of B1 over an extended period of time flipped something in your body out of alignment?

  11. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 0:34:55
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi, Doug.
    I am not surprised that there are no references to Lupus caused by bedbugs; this may be the first ever, for all I know.
    I'll give you the quick and easy answer now, but am prepared to be more precise later, if needs be.

    I was afflicted with auto-immune stuff for many years. Multiple allergies including MCS, IBS, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, B12 insufficiency, 'leaky gut' and malabsorption syndromes, all caused by childhood polio or perhaps measles vaccinations. Atypical reaction to drugs...some cause me high blood pressure, just for example. So I am probably prone towards unusual medical events. I have found that supplementing with vitamins and the useage of homeopathics, necessary for my survival. Also monthly self-injection of vitamin B-12. I am 67 years old and reading all the above you might think I'd be a mess, but really the opposite is true.

    When I was being attacked by the bedbugs, I noticed that usually a short time after (typically 3 close bites) a rash would develop up my arm or leg or wherever, quite spontaneously. Some research showed that this was my reaction to some juice from the bedbug itself, which is an unaesthetic which prevents you from feeling the biting action. (These bugs are very much smarter than mosquitoes.) There's a medical name for this effect...got it saved somewhere. Then all that became very much worse, couldn't sleep, many bugs, it felt like my skin was crawling, and often besides the constant itching, I would feel bites popping up, even when nothing was biting me. The only medicated cream which worked, a little bit, was hydro-cortisone..
    I went to a skin specialist; she arranged the tests and it was Ery....something Lupus, for sure.
    All that stopped dramatically with the B1.

  12. DougSummersMS

    oldtimer
    Joined: May '07
    Posts: 1,966

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 11:09:36
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Zak,

    Thanks for the explanation, I had never heard of an association between bed bugs and Lupus.

    If I understand your narrative correctly, it was due to a reaction with the anesthetic / anticoagulant protein fluid that the bed bugs inject into the host during feeding?

    Fifty bites a night is a sign of a severe infestation... Did you find a lot of dead bed bugs after the treatment?

    Given your medical history, I could see where that volume of bites could sensitize your immune system... Perhaps you can help me better understand the causal connection for developing Lupus.

    I have used B-1 successfully for mosquitoes, but do not see how it would work for bed bugs... A hungry bed bug is a highly motivated insect that will cross repellent chemicals to reach a host.

    I have concerns about the assertion that it makes insects unable to detect CO2 from a human without seeing some solid research on the subject... The concept that it makes a human "invisible" to bed bugs would seem counter intuitive based on our current knowledge of bed bug biology.

    I cannot speak to the safety of a high dosage of B-1 for an extended period of time... I only utilize B-1 on camping trips in Florida for short durations... I am glad to hear that you are consulting qualified professionals on the proper use of high doses.

  13. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 12:28:45
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Doug, yes I believe that is correct, It may be this:
    "Acquired ichthyosis with systemic lupus erythematosus: both dermatoses in a single skin biopsy specimen." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18441769

    My preferred choice of treatment might be this:
    Lupus antibiotic therapy,Garth Nicolson, The Institute for Molecular Medicine and The
    Morgellons Research ... Research Overview: Professor Garth Nicolson's Studies and Treatments
    http://www.immed.org/illness/treatment_considerations.html
    I already used Dr. Dr. Nicolson's treatments, (different antibiotics,) to successfully treat for lifelong chronic fatigue....6 years ago.
    The homeopathics lypocodium and sulphur have successfully controlled my lupus symptoms; rash, itching, eczema, etc.

    B1 absolutely worked. Perhaps your assumption about B1 being a repellant chemical is wrong. It must operate in masking CO2 in a different way. Perhaps an entomologist would know.

    I consulted with an orthomolecular doctor on this. But I have been experimenting with remedies for many years, with success. I believe that quality natural source vitamins are very safe, and in very large dosages if needs be. A lot has been written about flawed studies conducted by pharma-financed institutions, in order to put natural health products into disrepute in the public eye. Most famously, the flawed Vitamin E studies as published in Lancet. Are you familiar with the work of pioneering work of Drs. Hoffer, Riordan and Linus Pauling, etc. in the field of nutritional medicine? Their studies have demonstrated the safety of nutrition; indeed, they have demonstrated that supplements are required to treat prevailing clinical sub-malnutrition, for everyone!

    But in my case, 'required' became 'necessary' due to my compromised immune system. Indeed, if I had heeded the advice of mainstream doctors, I would have died years ago. As so many others have.

    I will be researching the safety of B1 used for lengthy periods; thanks for the tip.

  14. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 12,108

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 15:17:35
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Zak,

    How much Vit B1 would I need to take to stop my colony of bedbugs feeding from me when I apply the jar to my skin.

    I will happily follow your advice having checked it with my doctor.

    If it stops them feeding we will know if it acts as a repellant or if it simply masks the bodies response to bites.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bedbug infestations in domestic and commercial settings. The patent numbers are GB2463953 and GB2470307.

    "Open minds find faster solutions"

    "Astral Entomologist - because so many people say my ideas are out of this world"
  15. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 15:42:27
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi David,
    I'm not clear about your meaning of a jar.
    I purchased a bottle of Vitamin B1 gel capsules from a health food store. Each capsule contained 100 mg and I took 3 of these, each evening. You may wish to begin with only one capsule to start, and see if that gets you results. Then you might increase that to 200 mg, then to 300 mg, until you get results.
    Good luck!

  16. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 16:08:16
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak,

    David keeps a colony of bed bugs and has to feed them on his skin to sustain them. He does so (I understand) by inverting a jar of bed bugs onto his skin.

  17. jrbtnyc

    Member
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 999

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 17:38:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    The jar has an opening in its top covered by gauze or similar and David presses his skin up against it so the bugs can feed through the gauze yet still be constrained to stay in the jar.

    David: conceivably the hypothesized repellent effect would not predominate over such a short distance as the bugs are located from your skin when you permit them to feed, i.e. might be outweighed by other stimuli acting as attractants when so close up; but the repellent effect over a somewhat longer distance might predominate and thus still be useful as an anti-bb measure. So, before doing the jar feeding test, how about some longer-distance test such as placing some bugs in a long basin and a hand of yours at the other end of the basin. Maybe breathe in the direction of the bugs as well. Do this two separate times: once before you've taken the B1, and once after. (Maybe with two different sets of bugs on the same day, or with the same set of bugs five days apart so they've had a chance to get hungry again.) That way, perhaps we'd find out whether indeed there's a convincing net repellent effect (anecdotal – subsequently to be confirmed by formal lab procedures) at half a meter's distance. Later with the jar test we'd find out whether there's a net repellent effect at two millimeters' distance. The two results won't necessarily be the same.

  18. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 12,108

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 18:27:24
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Good thinking batman, I will set up a distance versus taxic response trial and cross reference it with a steadily increasing dose of Vit B1 to a maximum of whatever is the medically advised higher limit. I will even wear tape around my wellie just in case.

    Sorry the jar thing was not clear from the first post, I feed my colonies though gauze topped jars.

    They have been a little neglected of late so super tonight was a full sitting. I will see if I get a chance to post a gallery of how my response can change from day to day and sometimes from minute to minute.

    Just don't expect daily updates weekly feeds should be enough.

    David

  19. jrbtnyc

    Member
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 999

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 19:16:53
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Um...wellie... ...?

  20. dacrazydude

    newbite
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 9

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 19:20:02
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Nobugsonme - 1 day ago  » 
    zak,
    Thanks for sharing your story. (Sorry to hear about your illness.)
    The dose you were given, 300 mg/day, according to Medline Plus, was for "severe b1 deficiency":

    Vitamin B1 is water soluble and is not readily stored in your body. However, if you are taking this daily, you should consult with your doctor. I believe you stated you had immune problems and excessive thiamin levels can prevent proper levels of other B vitamins. I believe 300 mg/day is also 200x the daily value (I believe it is now 1.5 mg for a male). You should test if lower doses of thiamin grant the same therapeutic effect.

  21. cilecto

    oldtimer
    Joined: Aug '08
    Posts: 4,055

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 19:22:28
    #



    Login to Send PM

    jrbtnyc - 5 minutes ago  » 
    Um...wellie... ...?

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki?search=Wellington+boot

  22. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Feb 15 2011 21:49:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    oldtimer.....
    There should be no upper limit for vitamins:

    Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, January 5, 2011
    Zero Deaths from Vitamins, Minerals, Amino Acids or Herbs
    Poison Control Statistics Prove Supplements' Safety Yet Again
    (OMNS Jan 5, 2011) There was not even one death caused by a dietary supplement in 2009, according to the most recent information collected by the U.S. National Poison Data System.
    (OMNS Jan 5, 2011) There was not even one death caused by a dietary supplement in 2009, according to the most recent information collected by the U.S. National Poison Data System.
    The new 200-page annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers, published in the journal Clinical Toxicology, shows zero deaths from multiple vitamins; zero deaths from any of the B vitamins; zero deaths from vitamins A, C, D, or E; and zero deaths from any other vitamin.
    Additionally, there were no deaths whatsoever from any amino acid, herb, or dietary mineral supplement.
    Two people died from non-nutritional mineral poisoning, one from a sodium salt and one from an iron salt or iron.
    http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/index.shtml

  23. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 2:52:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    um....sorry, my last post was intended for bed-bugscouk.

  24. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 12,108

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 8:19:53
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Zak,

    There is an upper limit for consumption of everything including water. Yes if you drink too much you will die.

    One of the reasons why there will be no recorded death for supplements is that unless someone loads a gun with tablets and fires it at your head they cant directly kill you. For example if you took a complete excess of just about any medicine or supplement you would eventually get liver toxicity. The cause of death is listed as liver failure and not attributed to the pills you took.

    As such the most common causes of death are:

    Heart failure - no blood being pumped - you die
    Brain failure - no nerve signals - you die
    Accident - various options for being mangled - you die usually from shock and blood loss
    Old age - your body turns off - you die

    Sorry but the MTV world we live in also requires our passings to be neatly sorted into little boxes with little room for individuality (I am not a number I am a free man).

    Yes proving there is no history of vitamin death is stage one to looking at this area but definitive proof as others have said in public and PM comes from having a clinical trial to prove the efficacy of what you are testing. Sadly to fund such an effort will cost in the region of $8,000,000 which is a little more than the spare change in my pocket can fund.

    Until then you will need a sample set of at least 100 people to show results than are more than just anecdotal. This does also include my offer of blood letting for a few weeks (the things I do in the name of entomology).

    David

  25. tiredofvampires

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 27

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 10:08:00
    #



    Login to Send PM

    OOOH This sounds interesting David If it works let me know.

  26. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 11:51:24
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi bed-bugscouk:

    Reading about the great orthomolecular doctors is most interesting.
    At any rate, this quote states no upper limit for B1:
    "Finally, there are the B vitamins with little to no possibility for toxicity. According to the National Institutes of Health, there is no upper limit for intake of thiamine (vitamin B1), riboflavin (vitamin B2), or biotin (vitamin B7)."
    http://www.bukisa.com/articles/373645_vitamin-b-overdose-symptoms#ixzz1E8ml6X4g
    http://www.bukisa.com/articles/373645_vitamin-b-overdose-symptoms

    So the tiny amount of 300 mg which I am using should have no adverse effect, long-term. Who can begin trials of vitamin B! as a bedbug repellent? As we dither, thousands are being adversely affected by the dangerous chemicals used by the pest control people.

  27. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 12,108

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 12:59:38
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Zak,

    You had me on board right until the last sentence.

    I am still going to go ahead with a 4 - 6 week trial stepping up from 100mg once a day to 300mg by week 3 with feeding of bedbugs every 3 - 4 days.

    I don't subscribe to the repel is the answer philosophy because if we all try and repel them where will they go? If you repel bedbugs in your home its a lot like isolating the bed, if you give them no choice put to infest the most remote parts of your home and still access you as food that's what they will do. Where you logic is to avoid the bites the solution is to deal with the bedbugs not force them further into your home.

    I suspect a vitamin complex will help reduce the bodies responsiveness to bites and I don't think you will get anyone to disagree that a healthy body always heals faster than a sick or run down one.

    We have however been around here for long enough to hear the one about the vitamin skin patch that stops you from being bitten (if it ever arrives in the post that is) and many other snake oil attempts at cure all from plug in devices to rather fashionable tin foil hats (my personal favorite). Therefore many of the long term participants in the forum do a lot of background research and cross referencing sources of information. I appreciate the fact you have done the same in putting your case forward but in the same breath I think you need to agree that its not the B1 that killed the bedbugs it was the pest controller and most likely a heavy contribution from your own efforts.

    For the record I am not a massive chemical control fan and take pride in my reputation for extolling the virtues of avoidance, education , early detection and low chemical use.

    To think that bedbug control comes down to a single pill, product, spray, voodoo dance or Scientology god is to do a massive disservice to a highly adaptable pest (humans) and an amazing insect that happens to feed from them.

    David

  28. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 18:10:16
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi bed-bugscouk,

    Best of luck with your trial...the results should tell. Then perhaps followed by a trial involving controls and a lot of people?
    I suspect that the B1 (and it is not the entire b-complex) is not a repellent at all, and neither is it a chemical mask. (Vitamins are not chemicals.) In some waythe presence of B1 has the effect of turning off the sensing mechanism within the insect which allows it to detect CO2. What is that mechanism? And does that 'antenna' involve directionality, volume, etc.?
    Additionally I noticed that the CO2-inspired foraging bedbugs nearly always travelled inclose-coupled pairs. Do they have some kind of communication system? And might that communication system, if it exists, be part of their CO2 detection process?

    I hope we can remain positive about investigating the vitamin B1 process. I am a graduate engineer and have full possession of my faculties. I can observe and think quite well, and suffer from no delusions. I share your dislike of frauds, quackpots, and for that matter, quackbusters. The B1 worked dramatically well for me; I gain no benefit from making this up.

  29. EffeCi

    oldtimer
    Joined: Feb '09
    Posts: 1,938

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 19:45:04
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Vitamins are not chemicals? That's interesting...

  30. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 16 2011 20:35:50
    #



    Login to Send PM

    EffeCi:
    Wiki says, "A vitamin is an organic compound required as a nutrient in tiny amounts by an organism.[1] In other words, an organic chemical compound (or related set of compounds) is called a vitamin when it cannot be synthesized in sufficient quantities by an organism, and must be obtained from the diet."
    In other words, organic chemicals sometimes, as opposed to inorganic chemicals.
    Please correct me if this is wrong.

  31. cilecto

    oldtimer
    Joined: Aug '08
    Posts: 4,055

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 7:04:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    EffeCi - 11 hours ago  » 
    Vitamins are not chemicals? That's interesting...

    LOL

  32. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 12,108

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 8:18:34
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Everything is a chemical apart from the odd esoteric abstract thought and the text on this screen although technically you can only see it due to thousands of chemicals.

    Welcome to the chemical world.

    I will start testing your Vitamin B1 chemical next week, its 2-[3-[(4-Amino-2-methyl-pyrimidin-5-yl)methyl]-4-methyl-thiazol-5-yl] ethanol to give it its full chemical name or C12H17N4OS+Cl-.HCl for the abbreviated.

    David

  33. EffeCi

    oldtimer
    Joined: Feb '09
    Posts: 1,938

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 8:51:34
    #



    Login to Send PM

    an organic chemical compound (or related set of compounds) is called a vitamin when it cannot be synthesized in sufficient quantities by an organism, and must be obtained from the diet."

    Wikishit .... just see the case of vitamin D...

  34. tiredofvampires

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 27

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 11:35:53
    #



    Login to Send PM

    EffeCi - 2 hours ago  » 

    an organic chemical compound (or related set of compounds) is called a vitamin when it cannot be synthesized in sufficient quantities by an organism, and must be obtained from the diet."

    Wikishit .... just see the case of vitamin D...

    LOL I hate wiki too they are frequently wrong

  35. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 13:08:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    It's the inorganic chemicals that I cannot tolerate, such as virtually all pharmaceuticals, and alcohol. The organic chemicals including food/ vitamins are just fine. I am looking forward to the results of your tests.

  36. Koebner

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 737

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 13:23:04
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak - 12 minutes ago  » 
    It's the inorganic chemicals that I cannot tolerate, such as virtually all pharmaceuticals, and alcohol. The organic chemicals including food/ vitamins are just fine. I am looking forward to the results of your tests.

    So, you have an oxygen (inorganic) intolerance but you're just dandy with toluene (organic)?

    Think you may be labouring under a misapprehension as to the meanings of "organic" & "inorganic" when used in chemistry.

  37. EffeCi

    oldtimer
    Joined: Feb '09
    Posts: 1,938

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 15:48:59
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I guess your knowledge of chemistry is not so deep... the greatest part of pharmaceuticals are complex organic molecules, alcohol is organic. Vitamins are all organic complex molecules too, because they're carbonium based.

  38. DougSummersMS

    oldtimer
    Joined: May '07
    Posts: 1,966

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 16:24:38
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Zak,

    You are using a different definition of organic / inorganic than David or EffeCi... Vitamins are chemicals... Some have low toxicity, but many organic chemicals will harm your health... Cyanide is organic too.

    I am interested to hear about the results of David's experiment, but I will wager that the bed bugs will still feed on him through the gauze screen despite the B-1 ingestion.

    I want to thank Koebner for posting the links to the studies on B-1 as a mosquito repellent.

    B-1 worked for me, but it doesn't appear to survive rigorous scientific examination regarding it's effectiveness for repelling mosquitoes.

    The working link for the Fradin / Day study makes some interesting points in the comment letters about USDA standards for caged vs naturalistic settings for testing, but states that caged studies are useful for screening purposes.

    [

  39. jrbtnyc

    Member
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 999

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 17:25:26
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Something tells me the "vitamin/chemical/organic" line of discussion isn't going to get us anywhere so let's hereby invoke cloture on that if everyone concurs.

    Meanwhile...

    DougSummersMS - 51 minutes ago  » 
    ...
    I will wager that the bed bugs will still feed on [David] through the gauze screen despite the B-1 ingestion.
    ...

    ...I would put my money on that horse too, but what could be intriguing is whether B1 succeeds as a "repellent" (or whatever mechanism getting bugs to bite less) over *longer* distances than feeding through the gauze.

  40. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 17 2011 18:46:05
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I agree with Doug.
    Not knowing exactly how the jar test is set up, I suggest that it be done in such a matter that the bedbugs need to travel on their own down or across the jar to the screened area, AFTER the skin is presented... . If the bugs are already on the screen when the skin is pressed against it, that would not be a fair test of the CO2 masking-factor. They would probably bite upon contact, anyhow.

    At any rate, I hope you can resume discussion once the tests are completed. It was not my intention to be drawn into a discussion of organic or whatever, and I am sorry. I feel that B1 works and that therefore continued serious consideration should be given.

  41. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 18 2011 1:34:50
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Koebner's post above was caught in the spam filter:

    Koebner - 12 hours ago  » 

    zak - 12 minutes ago  » 
    It's the inorganic chemicals that I cannot tolerate, such as virtually all pharmaceuticals, and alcohol. The organic chemicals including food/ vitamins are just fine. I am looking forward to the results of your tests.

    So, you have an oxygen (inorganic) intolerance but you're just dandy with toluene (organic)?
    Think you may be labouring under a misapprehension as to the meanings of "organic" & "inorganic" when used in chemistry.

  42. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 18 2011 2:04:19
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Could we please just stick to the topic of testing B1?
    Before I posted about my experiences, there was no discussion on this topic, at all.

  43. cilecto

    oldtimer
    Joined: Aug '08
    Posts: 4,055

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 18 2011 8:51:08
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Suppose B1 either keeps BB from finding food or reduces bite reaction…will it eliminate an infestation in the home? What should my reaction be if (hypothetically) I presented to my landlord definitive evidence of BB in my apartment/his building and he told me to "just go to the store and buy a patch"?

  44. spideyjg

    oldtimer
    Joined: Jul '08
    Posts: 3,239

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 18 2011 9:24:37
    #



    Login to Send PM

    The only use for this would be for highly allergic people to lead the bugs to their spouse.

    Anything that doesn't kill has a very limited scope of use.

    Jim

  45. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 18 2011 17:15:53
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Prior knowledge of the Vitamin B1 solution would have prevented me from a lot of suffering, and from contracting the lupus in the middle of this, and which I still have.
    Allergies? ... I have not suffered from allergies for years.

  46. DougSummersMS

    oldtimer
    Joined: May '07
    Posts: 1,966

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 18 2011 19:37:28
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Zak

    The issue that Jim and Cilectro are raising is that repelling bugs is not sufficient.

    We still need to kill the bugs to eradicate them from a residence.

    Cilectro's earlier point about a hypothetical landlord providing B-1 instead of treatment is a good example of the problem with a product that is repellent, but not lethal

  47. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 0:40:54
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Thank you Doug for explaining, I understand.
    Bugs in a single family dwelling can be safely killed with non-traditional methods; the latest being high temperatures applied throughout the house for an extended period, perhaps a day.
    Another method is a fog, (forget the correct name.)

    An apartment building is a different matter as all the tenants would need to be relocated because all apartment units must be treated simultaneously. This is usually prohibitively expensive for the landlord, and impractical.

    Lethality is very difficult to maintain even with the traditional methods being used, whereby each apartment is treated as a new breakout occurs. Often some of the bedbugs escape the apartment being treated, under baseboards, doorways, crevasses, etc. In this way some will return to re-infect that apartment later, or migrate to other uninfected apartment. Typically an infected apartment, such as mine was, can become re-infected an unlimited number of times.
    An infected building may never become bedbug-free, reaping a golden harvest for the exterminators.

    I propose that the vitamin B1 application may be useful therefore as an adjunct in the case of apartment buildings. Sure, that does not eradicate all the bedbugs, but most die of starvation, anyway. I haven't seen a one in four months, but I know there must be some dormant eggs, etc. somewhere. Likewise, spraying with insecticide does not kill 100%, either.

    The best solution for apartments may become a combination of techniques.

  48. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 1:00:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Doug, please consider that Vitamin B1 may in fact NOT be a CO2-related phenomenon, as is reported in literature concerning mosquitoes. Alternatively, The B1 effect may be a repellant for some unknown reason. I advance this notion for your consideration, having just remembered something:

    For about a week, immediately after starting B1, (the bedbugs having disappeared from the surface of my bed immediately) but I did encounter a very few, maybe 4 or 5, in the kitchen area.
    Why would they appear only at that last remaining and distant place, if not part of a process of ESCAPE?

    Also interesting was the presence of a couple of spiders in the kitchen, which may have gobbled up those stragglers. Nature's way.

    Does anybody know an entomologist who might be able to answer a few questions?

  49. jrbtnyc

    Member
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 999

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 1:20:38
    #



    Login to Send PM

    DougSummersMS - 5 hours ago  » 
    Zak
    The issue that Jim and Cilectro are raising is that repelling bugs is not sufficient.
    We still need to kill the bugs to eradicate them from a residence.
    ...

    Wait...wait...wait...

    What if, for argument's sake, the repellency works 100.000000%, i.e. no bugs whatsoever can find humans to feed on who are taking a certain daily dose of B1.

    What if the test location is a single-family house far from all other houses, in Fairbanks, Alaska in early November so the bugs really, really don't have any other place to go besides the one home.

    After whatever period of time required for starvation/desiccation, dispersal beyond the house not being an option, ALL the bugs will be dead, won't they? In other words, the bugs will have been eradicated from the residence, won't they, using only the repellent? Since they can't feed on anything else but human blood, which they're unable to locate.

    Sure, it may take longer than we'd like for all the bugs to die, so, what if we keep the house nice and toasty warm, plus use a dehumidifier to help speed the bugs' thirst. Those two factors help bugs die quicker, it's my understanding.

    Okay, let's say a few of the bugs survive until spring, then leave the house in search of food elsewhere.

    We've still eradicated them from the house using only the repellent, haven't we?

    And meanwhile NO humans have been receiving bites, isn't that correct?

    Obviously, few real-life situations will have all these factors giving the repellent its ideal chance to show off.

    But isn't the point that if B1 is demonstrated to be a strong repellent, doesn't hurt humans in any way, doesn't interfere with any other anti-bb measures, and is readily affordable, shouldn't it become a crucial, regular part of integrated pest management against bb's, where you hit them with everything you've got?

    Especially if some of your good weapons are...

    (1) inexpensive so they're usable by millions of people who are unable to pay for expert PCO involvement, and

    (2) totally easy to use so PCO expertise isn't required for them anyway.

    (By the way, is B1 inexpensive for each 300mg dose.)

    So it seems to me we ought not to poo-poo any of our available tools, just because any one tool doesn't normally get the job done by itself.

    And by the way, if our test location in Fairbanks isn't a single-family home but rather, a multi-unit building, where the landlord provides every tenant with sufficient B1 to starve/desiccate the bugs, i.e. eradicate them, at bargain basement cost, wouldn't that be superb? Would anyone object to that solution?

  50. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 13:00:00
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Sounds OK, Doug.
    I stopped taking the B1, yesterday. (In the name of science.)
    Waiting to see if more hatch out of my mattress, or whatever, Been 4 months now.

    Q- To resolve the issue--- is B1 a repellant or a CO2 masker for b-bugs?
    How about sone doing an experiment. Maybe a flat container, sprinkled with some critters inside. Then spray a fine mist of a B1-water mixture into one corner only. See if they move away or stay still.

  51. EffeCi

    oldtimer
    Joined: Feb '09
    Posts: 1,938

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 15:24:44
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Then spray a fine mist of a B1-water mixture into one corner only. See if they move away or stay still.

    I guess it doesn't work in this way... a B1-water solution is not the same of what you emit trough skin....

  52. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 15:59:05
    #



    Login to Send PM

    True enough. But it would be such a simple thing to do, just in case....but I can't do it because I don't have any bed-bugs.
    Maybe bed-bugscouk could try it?

  53. Beth

    account closed
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 612

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 17:43:31
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Zak,

    As a student of natural medicine (I studied under a naturopath when I was very ill) I have to tell you that just about everything you are saying on vitamins is wrong.

    Fat soluble vitamins ABSOLUTELY have a threshold for consumption and toxicity potential. People DO die every year from vitamin overdose, think vitamin D, K and A. It's actually not a bad suicide tool I guess since people with no education will just think someone wanted to be way healthy. Water soluble vitamins also can cause toxicity or chronic health issues like tachycardia, kidney failure and brain swelling if taken in megadoses. There are reams of literature, in the natural health world, about vitamin toxicity so I'm just not feeling you here.

    I received an injection b/c of a misdiagnosis of severe thiamine deficiency (untested) in hospital of 1000mg of thiamine two years ago. I had a toxic reaction due to my size (lowered body temperature, severe diarrhea, terrible agitation) and ended in the ER and was hospitalized.

    A year prior, I was admitted into the ER for what is called a "nicotinamide" reaction to the amino acid, taurine, which I took 1/2 of the daily dose for. I was told b/c of my MCS (I'm surprised they have you on all of the stuff they do---when you consider Lupus, consider their "all natural" cocktail) that somehow my liver couldn't break down the amino acid: read protein, and it caused brain swelling. I broke out in hives, my bp dropped dramatically and I went into seizures.

    Right around that same time I purchased a "vitamin D lamp" which emits like thousands of IU's a minute for people with vitamin D deficiency, which I had quite badly. I stood in it for one minute, and because of the rapid exposure, ended up with symptoms of vitamin D toxicity (though thankfully not vitamin D overdose).

    A year before that, in a depressed state, I took trytophan, stupidly, with an antidepressant (I no longer tak any pharmaceuticals or miracle megavitamins), and got serotonin syndrome which nearly caused me to have a heart attack.

    Stop getting your information from orthomolecular salesman and start reading biochemistry. I am afraid you also misunderstand the immune system since it is entirely possible your rash is an allergic reaction. Allergies are not just anaphylaxis, hives or itchy eyes. Lupus is a complicated disease, one it seems that was easily diagnosed in you (be thankful, many don't get the positive blood test) and you are definitely more prone to allergies, chemical sensitivities, etc. I can see however how bed bugs would not necesarrily cause your Lupus, but activate it, the way a tragedy or illness often does for people with autoimmune issues. I'm sure the anticoagulant hasn't helped. I have been tested, negatively, for Lupus, but I have similar immune issues b/c of Lymes disease.

    If vitamin B1 is found to stop bed bugs from biting, I won't be taking megadoses of it to be sure-- and I am totally against pesticides. Megadose vitamin therapy is dangerous. Period. Unless there is a severe deficiency to correct. And even then, depending on the person's detox pathways and liver and kidney function, can be dangerous.

    If you have systemic Lupus Eurythematosus, you should not be taking in those megavitamins. 100% dv is quite enough once you are no longer deficient unless you have pernicious anemia and then you'd want to a mega dose of of vitamin B12, or are ill and then drink lots of oj or it's winter and you increase your vitamin D to 1000mg a day. Many natural doctors, like western medical doctors, are scam artists, sorry to say Zak. Yes, they are more biochemists than your average western medical doctor, and yes, vitamins kill a lot less people than pharmaceuticals. But megavitamin therapy is mostly a capitalist enterprise. I realized after awhile I had to discern the fact of biochemistry I was learning from the advertising going on. I feel that way with bed bugs now too. Separate the fact steam works from the thousand dollar steamer, you know? Separate the fact vitamin B12 can enhance mental function and cure nerve disease from the $44 dollar bottle of 2000mcg.

    best~
    Amy

  54. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 20:30:13
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I am not overdosing on vitamins. Nor am I taking advice from nutraceutical salesmen. My doctor is a well-respected member of the Orthomolecular Society. She has consistently stated for over a year that my vitamin D levels were too low, and to take large doses. Having checked with other sources I discontunued D3 supplements, deciding on my own that the D3 might be getting absorbed into fat cells and potentially toxic. I am in line for an appointment with a rheumatologist. My investigation leads towards my getting vitamin D2, used for these conditions.
    I am saying that I am, if anything, being very consevative.

    I said I discontinued the D3, to see if the bedbugs would return. But this discussion is not about vitamin D; it is about B1.

    I am sorry if you feel that I am turning to this group for medical help wherreas I am not.
    I had very interesting results using a vitamin product against bedbugs, and responded to your post of inquiry. That is I believe, important, and I thought I had something to offer. If you all believe that a discussion about B1 is a waste of time because vitamins are dangerous, then why not withdraw the post?

    The valiant Orthomolecular researchers have proven that vitamins are not intrinsically dangerous, and that's good enough for me.

    I have suggested that if we discover that B1 is a repellant, then could that not be contained in purchasable spray cans to repel bedbugs? That is only one of numerous possibilities which could be investigated. Would that not be a safer alternative to the dangerous toxins now flooding the market?

    If vitamin

  55. cilecto

    oldtimer
    Joined: Aug '08
    Posts: 4,055

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 21:29:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I'm glad that EffeCi beat me to the punch. Even if B1 "repels" BB...
    We don't know if it's just "B1 in the air" or what the body secretes when it takes a lot of B1, so spraying a mist of B1 in a container would not prove anything.

    We don't know if B1 confuses a BB (i.e., it doesn't know you're there) or if it repels them (i.e., BB feels threatened by the environment).

    We don't know how B1 would operate in different people, with different metabolisms and physical conditions or interactions with diet or medication.

    We don't know, even if B1 "worked" as a repellent, how long BB would continue to be repelled, or if at a certain point they will get desperate/bold enough.

    Most of us are not at the level of expertise needed to conduct experiments like these. It takes facilities, people, time and rigor. For all we know, someone has researched this or is doing so now. But at this point, we don't know.

    On to the house in Fairbanks. Are you suggesting that no one enters this house that is not on B1 (assuming it works WHICH WE DON'T KNOW)? If you extend this to an apartment house, what happens when the pizza delivery comes, or the cable guy, or maintenance? And people expect solutions to problems like BB, why should they be guinea pigs for some experiment? And if they're sensitive to B1? Or if they have a religious objection to taking it?

    I worry, that someone will come across threads like this and get the idea that because someone on "the Internet" said that a B1 patch might, under certain circumstances provide some relief to someone exposed to BB, it makes it "the" solution to a BB infestation. This is for you: WE DON'T KNOW, BUT TO THE BEST OF OUR KNOWLEDGE, NO. UNLIKE OTHER INTERNET SITES, OR YOUTUBE COMMENT SECTIONS, OR NEWS ARTICLE TALK-BACKS, THIS ONE HAS ACTUAL PROFESSIONALS, RESEARCHERS AND ACADEMICS PARTICIPATING (and they're not obligated to take their agendas from someone who pretends to understand the difference between organic and in-organic compounds, but doesn't). WHEN THERE'S AN ACADEMIC BED BUG CONFERENCE, THIS SITE WRITES IT UP. IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS WORKED, WE'D LIKELY HEAR IT...AND WE HAVEN'T.

    At this time, the best answers we have to the BB problem is in guides like this one, not in dubious products that have been re-purposed, and often marked up, to sell to a BB-terrified populace.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/emergingdiseases/Bed_Bug_Manual_v1_full_reduce_326605_7.pdf

    /rant

  56. Koebner

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 737

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 19 2011 21:51:24
    #



    Login to Send PM

    "Valiant orthomolecular researchers" like this; http://www.badscience.net/2009/04/matthias-rath-steal-this-chapter/ ? I defy you to read the whole thing, it's an obnoxious story of exploitation, egomania & callous indifference to human suffering on the part of one of the world's most successful orthomolecular practitioners.

    I've been really patient with you so far Zak, truly I have, but your vitamin pushers kill people while you just go on drinking the Kool Aid & telling yourself you're in the vanguard of a bright new orthomolecular dawn.

    To borrow a phrase from Oliver Cromwell - I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken!

  57. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 20 2011 2:05:08
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Koebner, the Quackusters including Ben Goldacre are well-known to be Pharma -paid liars who twist, distort, post false reports, act as non-expert witnesses and consistently lose actions taken against them in court. I think you are mistaken in presenting this as an example.
    Dr. Goldacre as exposed by Martin Walker:
    http://www.slingshotpublications.com/dwarfs.html

    Your statement abour vitamin-pushers killing people...please present your statistics. There is not a single recorded instance of a quality vitamin killing anyone. Pharma drugs kill millions of people, vitamins don't.

    Again the histrionics with which you present Dr. Rath are plain silly, and false. He is a good man, who has contributed greatly. But he is the only orthomolecular doctor who became a bit controversial.
    I am no different than millions of people who benefit from vitamins, herbs and minerals from 'Health Food Stores.' You would like to put that industry out of business?

    Please stick to the topic; it's very simple. My experience was that B!1 had an immediate and longlasting effect, which caused the cessation and apparent disappearance of bedbugs. If you choose to disbelieve me when I stated the facts then I am wasting my time here.

    Furthermore, an extremely simple 1 minute test would demonstrate whether bedbugs run away from some physical B1 or not. If they move away, then the B1 acts as a repelant. Then it might become useful if applied as a spray, or whatever. An opportunity for someone to create a new product, perhaps? Would you challenge me if I stated that vitamins are safer than bedbugs?

    As stated I used the amount 300 mg B1 as prescribed by my MD, to rid myself of these pests. IT WORKED! However, if someone continues to live in a previously infected apartment as I do, might a lesser amount, such as 100 mg? It so happens that some of the very best multivatamins or B-COMPLEX combinations have 100 mg B! within each capsule. The recommended dose is always once daily, or more. I venture to say, if you polled the doctors of America, you may discover that most doctors recommend a daily multi-vitamin for their patients. So any allegations that I advocate dangerous dosages of a dangerous product as being nonsensical

  58. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 20 2011 2:58:29
    #



    Login to Send PM

    This is a highly regarded study: THE AMES STUDY.
    Five Stages of Nutrient Deficiency Leading to Disease by R Gerber - http://intelegen.com/nutrients/five_stages_nutrient_deficiency.htm

    "Most of the vitamins discussed here appear safe in relatively high doses -"
    "The Ames group also comments on the safety of even megadose levels of many nutrients."
    "No safe upper limit (UL) for B1 has been set because of its relative safety"

  59. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 20 2011 3:46:34
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak,

    Let's take what you're saying happened to the next level.

    If the b1 really did repel bed bugs from your home (even indirectly, by causing them to eschew you as food), they went somewhere else.

    Since you're in an apartment, they probably went to one of more of your attached neighbor's homes.

    There's no reason to think they stuck around, unfed and simply died out.

  60. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 20 2011 16:38:49
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Nobugsonme,
    Actually it's an apartment in an apartment building; kindly review all that I wrote about that.
    Some migration occurs for sure, and that is why the exterminators spray the baseboards of hallways, seal all baseboards within affected apartments with caulking, use steam, etc. So I believe there must be some die-off occurring but the species is well equipped for that.
    1- In the literature adult bedbugs may lie in a dormant state for up to one year....(hidden in cracks, nooks & crannies.)
    2 - The egg stage which may be long-lasting.
    Most infested apartments in my building eventually get bedbugs back again, an extended time period after a series of treatments.
    Most never-infested apartments have remained that way, in recent history.
    The initial large-scale infestation occurred when the City moved a lot of people here en masse, years ago, from an infestated housing development.

  61. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 20 2011 21:18:43
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Like I said, zak, you're in an apartment.

    zak - 4 hours ago  » 

    1- In the literature adult bedbugs may lie in a dormant state for up to one year....(hidden in cracks, nooks & crannies.)
    2 - The egg stage which may be long-lasting.

    We are told bed bugs will not lie in a dormant state like that if humans are in the vicinity.

    Anyway, my point was really not so much about your current situation and where your specific bed bugs may have fled to (if they did indeed get repelled somehow).

    It was more about your method and the logical outcomes of employing it. Assuming it really does work, it is not a good plan because it seems like it will likely give other people bed bugs rather than killing them off.

  62. jrbtnyc

    Member
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 999

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 20 2011 22:08:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Humbly submitting: what if B1 is indeed demonstrated to be a 100.000000% repellent (absurd yes of course, but for argument's sake), doesn't hurt humans in any way, doesn't interfere with any other anti-bb measures, never engenders bug resistance to its repellent action, and is readily affordable...

    ...by the way, what is the cost for each day's 300 mg B1...

    ...then wouldn't it be at least theoretically possible, and also potentially practical and a very desirable solution, to have everyone in the building take the B1 for the rest of their lives so the bugs have nowhere they can flee to from one place to another in the building where they can find food?

    Wouldn't that completely remove, at least theoretically, the "spread" objection?

    Maybe everyone in the building would end up with bed bugs, but so what if nobody's getting bitten over the very long term.

    It seems to me crucial, any time we consider some novel measures that might control bugs and they can't get around them except by spreading to other locations available to them, that we insist on investigating what happens if we use those measures in *all* the other locations too.

  63. Beth

    account closed
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 612

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 20 2011 23:13:09
    #



    Login to Send PM

    when I took a certain medication, the bugs did bite far less frequently as I think it actually killed them (it was nearly killing me). Megadosing everyone on vitamin B1 is not an answer to a worldwide epidemic. It's not practical and will give poor folk the shaft with these things once again b/c how many of us can afford to go to the co-op and buy 300mg of B1 every month. So nobugs is absolutely right, you'd be sending them all our way.

    Listen, "orthomolecular" sounds cool. Do some more intensive reading of other natural medical textbooks---ayurveda, chinese medicine, homeopathy, native medicine, etc. I'd highly recommend "Nutritional Healing". I don't abide by some of their megadosing, but at least they are more balanced than some megavitamin dictators. Orthomolecular medicine has its place, especially in curing amino acid imbalances and alkalinizing the body, and I've used the logic behind it to lighten my mood with some success, with foods not vitamin pills, but zak, you talk like you've been inducted into a cult. Just because something is not western medicine doesn't mean it's the miracle western medicine claims to be. We all get sick and die. Even bedbugs. Doctors are only aids in healing, as are medicines and vitamins, there is no cure for the human condition of being prone to illness and certain to bite the dust, no matter how much E-Live you swallow for how long. That's all these fads are---an attempt to allay the natural human fear of death. When I think about it philosophically, bed bugs are a welcome reminder that we are not who will survive for millions of years, neither us nor our language. Orthomolecular sounds impressive but it's really something a 9th grade biology student could grasp and practice.

    I'm glad your doc has you on vitamin D, but I'd caution you really don't need more than 400-800 mg a day in the form of supplement, even in the winter.

    I'd be interested to know if B1 wards off bedbugs but since it seems so anecdotal at this point, even for mosquitoes, it appears to be more of a far reaching hope than anything backed by science. There is not even enough science to why it might possibly work to get an experiment funded so I think your hopes are not going anywhere here. Owing to my dislike of heavy pesticide extermination protocols, I'd be the first to back you if they were.

    Amy

  64. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 3,193

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 21 2011 8:00:54
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I feel like I got lost in the mall and found my way into the vitamin shop.

    The reason I was at the mall? To buy a Packtite silly

  65. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 12,108

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 21 2011 8:31:14
    #



    Login to Send PM

    OK Its day 1 - control bite exposures day, the vitamins start tomorrow at 100mg. I am going to feed 3 or 4 jars on my left forearm for 10 minutes each and take a series of shorts at time intervals after. I have also made a taxic response chamber which will be placed on my arm with 10 live hungry bedbugs in it. One half of the chamber will be held 2 mm away from my skin while the other side will be covered with paper.

    I will try to visually record as much as possible and when I have time I will create a non linked section on the website to keep a PDF up to date about it.

    With regards why it is not a viable control option to mask people so the bedbugs die its actually rather simple. We are bedbug preferred host but not their only host. Unless you can find a way to deliver the appropriate dosage of B1 of all the creates when it will not work in the short run or the long run.

    However if it has a reduction effect on the bite response it may be a tool for some to help cope with infestations while they are being resolved through control steps.

    I will continue with this project as long as this thread can remain on track, by that I specifically mean Zak take a massive chill on this one. While you continue to try and drive home a wider agenda about Orthomolecular anything I am getting closer and closer to the point where I will drop you in the quack bin and ignore. I would also suggest that you hold back your opinions on people like Ben Goldacre as he actually runs a quack science myth busting website in the UK and regularly has a pop at poor science int he media. As you may have guessed this has included items on bedbugs where I can assure you he did his research and took on one of the largest pest control firms in the world managing to get them to U turn on a statement in 3 days. I can assure you senior heads rolled as a result and he actually does things correctly.

    I will also point out to you that I don't get paid to do things like this, neither do the other professionals on this board. It is unlike any other forum I have participated in as frankly the professional help is almost global coverage and thus many of us help in situations where we will never see financial gain. If you spent time looking at the forum and reading the past posts you will see much of this. As a group of professionals we have also learnt from the fact master entomologist himself in NY that its best to be as accurate as you can be which I dare say is why some of this thread has wavered at times.

    Finally I would like to share an old family saying which happens to be so apt to pest control, that is "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar".

    Stay on topic and I think we will have some interesting data and experiments, veer off and it will be a solo car crash because you are not dragging me down a path of made up words and poorly represented pseudo science.

    David

  66. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Feb 21 2011 21:36:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    David.
    I agree, too much discussion, on with the test!
    Yes, I am guilty of introducing the term orthomolecular as that is the name of the science of nutritional healing...they invented it, and the name. The modern science behind healthy nutrition and supplementation is not a fad or a cult I got into all that because more than one person wrote that vitamins are often dangerous. I had a right to disagree as everything I have learned and experienced has taught me the contrary.
    The cost of B1 capsules is about 20 cents per day, and I have demonstrated the safety.
    Good luck.

  67. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 21:08:51
    #



    Login to Send PM

    bed-bugscouk,
    How goes the testing?

  68. ecopest_jeff

    newbite
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 17

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:31:33
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Wow. This is old, obviously. Bed bugs are attracted by CO2 and heat, as we have learned in recent research. In your little jar, the CO2 attraction factor is removed, so you will find absolutely no results from the vitamin. HOWEVER, a person who is sleeping, and that bed bugs have to search out, can benefit from the vitamin, IF it works as reported.

    And, please, stop being so condescending with your replies. We are all humans here, and we all deserve basic respect.

  69. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 30 2011 0:29:14
    #



    Login to Send PM

    ecopest_jeff,
    They were going to do the 'jar test' a month ago, and we're still waiting for the results.
    As you said, a negative test from a jar might be inconclusive, but even a slight deviation from bed-bugs 'normal' behaviour might be interesting.
    Given that pest-control is a billion dollar business, I doubt that the chemical-pharmaceutical lobby would permit any interest in an alternative use of vitamins.
    Last month, I stopped the vitamin D for a couple of days, and captured 4 bed-bugs. Then I resumed the vitamin and no more to be seen, since.

  70. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 12,108

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 30 2011 8:58:58
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    Sorry I got ill for a few days and then was on catch up not that its any slower at present.

    I am back on the B1 and feeding in the next few days and will photo document the whole thing.

    Out of basic respect I will also add that its not knew research that bedbugs are attracted to CO2 and heat if as Prof Mike Potter found in his research for his article on the history of bedbugs the lack of knowledge and understanding in the world is actually because we set aside the good text books like Usinger's monograph in the 1970's. Much can still be relearned from the old texts.

    David

  71. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 0:20:49
    #



    Login to Send PM

    The spin has been about CO2.
    But a pharmacist opined on some other forum, that taking vitamin B1 causes sulphides to be present and that is what repels bedbugs and mosquitoes. New finding?

    Latest news is that I mistakenly purchased some cheap vitamins from a pharmacy and got a few bedbug bites. (they are still in my mattress, after 6 months.)
    I immediately bought some quality vitamins at a health store, and stopped them cold.

    How goes the test? Wouldn't it be preferable to simply do what I did and try taking vitamin B1 300 mg for a while, as a test? Taking vitamins have not harmed me one bit. Au contraire!

  72. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 1:14:32
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak - 49 minutes ago  » 
    Wouldn't it be preferable to simply do what I did and try taking vitamin B1 300 mg for a while, as a test? Taking vitamins have not harmed me one bit. Au contraire!

    Just a reminder: no one reading this should start taking large doses of B1 as zak recommends unless this is specifically approved by their personal physicians.

    Facts:
    (1) We have no proof at this time that it works as zak describes to repel bed bugs.
    (2) If it does "repel" bed bugs, we have no information on where they go. I guarantee you they do not disappear into thin air, so where bed bugs go (if repelled) is a serious concern.

  73. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 12:41:01
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Facts: (as you presented)
    "(1) We have no proof at this time that it works as zak describes to repel bed bugs."

    ---- you offered to do tests, some months ago. Where are the results?

    "(2) If it does "repel" bed bugs, we have no information on where they go. I guarantee you they do not disappear into thin air, so where bed bugs go (if repelled) is a serious concern."

    ---- No they don't disappear. They just die, mostly inside a mattress, etc. After 6 months to a year, tops. So do the eggs, eventually. But mostly they lay dormant, and weak.

    I did the vitamin B3 on the advice of my doctor, and it worked. Instead of being so constantly negative about this vitamin project, why don't you actually try it yourself? Did your MD say that vitamins were dangerous? That kind of ignorance is often propaganda sponsored by the pharmaceutical and chemical industries.
    In this case, the Pest Control Industry could stand to lose $Billions.

    As I said, sulphides from the body's processing of B2 may be the repelling agent. Can you comment on that, please? It would be nice if you could respond with some positive news.

  74. JWhiteBBCTV

    member
    Joined: Oct '08
    Posts: 232

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 13:36:25
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I just caught this post recently. I see it has been going on for a while but I can't always check in regularly. I shot the following video a while back in response to a company who had created a patch revolving around B1:

    http://www.bedbugcentral.com/tv/index.php/2010/10/the-bed-bug-patch/

    The bottom line is that tests have been conducted on B1 and mosquito repellency and it has not been demonstrated to increase repellency. The following link references the topic in the discussion and provides some additional references on the topic. http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa011699

    Most alternatives to topically applied repellents have proved to be ineffective. No ingested compound, including garlic and thiamine (vitamin B1), has been found to be capable of repelling biting arthropods.

    The company I spoke to tried to sell me on the fact that their patch is dermal absorption and not ingested and that it would change the way it is taken into the system and that all research has been done on mosquitoes and not bed bugs. I've spoken to several different nutrionists on the uptake of B1 and all have said that their claims are ridiculous and it has not been shown to make humans more repellent to mosquitoes.

    I'll let everyone draw their conclusions on the topic as they are right in that the theory has not been tested on dermal absorption and bed bugs but the writing is on the wall IN BIG LETTERS.

  75. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 14:46:04
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Dear Mr. White,
    Why did you suppose that tests involving a skin patch delivery system would guarantee the identical results as tests which involve taking vitamin B1 orally? Basic principles of good scientific research require one to closely duplicate the methods used by person (that would be me) who reported successful results.
    Skin patches vs oral are like apples and oranges.
    Please stop dithering and have some people do some real science here, using oral vitamins.
    It worked for me and I am most certain it will work safely for anyone!

  76. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 3,193

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 15:46:45
    #



    Login to Send PM

    This entire thread is ridiculous. I'm not going to get into it .. but to suggest the bugs were back biting because you took cheaper B1 leaves me speechless. To suggest the problem is better now because you bought the good stuff again ... well, I can't even read this thread again.

  77. cilecto

    oldtimer
    Joined: Aug '08
    Posts: 4,055

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 17:14:48
    #



    Login to Send PM

    > Please stop dithering and have some people do some real science here, using oral vitamins.
    It worked for me and I am most certain it will work safely for anyone!

    Who exactly is obligated to conduct a study on your behalf, Zak?

    And suppose massive doses of B1 do cause your bugs to go dormant and eventually die. What happens when a non-doped individual comes into range? If a pipe busts in your bathroom, do you have a dose ready for the plumber? If you meet a hot person at a party who you'd love to bring home, do you say, "wait, here are some pills I need you to take"?

    > This entire thread is ridiculous.

    @KQ, careful, you might hurt the OP's feelings.

  78. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Mon Apr 25 2011 20:02:47
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Bed-bugscouk was going to do a 'jar' test.

  79. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Apr 26 2011 1:05:08
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak - 12 hours ago  » 
    Facts: (as you presented)
    "(1) We have no proof at this time that it works as zak describes to repel bed bugs."
    ---- you offered to do tests, some months ago. Where are the results?

    No, I never did. Re-read the thread.

    You're also confused about the timeline. David Cain (bedbugscouk) updated you on his research three weeks ago.

    "(2) If it does "repel" bed bugs, we have no information on where they go. I guarantee you they do not disappear into thin air, so where bed bugs go (if repelled) is a serious concern."
    ---- No they don't disappear. They just die, mostly inside a mattress, etc. After 6 months to a year, tops. So do the eggs, eventually. But mostly they lay dormant, and weak.

    I don't think you have any basis on which to say this.

    In fact, we know bed bugs can live for a long time without feeding.

    We also know they will travel to feed.

    So the "facts" I presented are true, whether you believe it or not. How have you verified that all of your bed bugs and eggs become dormant and then die? How can you prove they did not spread elsewhere?

    As I said, sulphides from the body's processing of B2 may be the repelling agent. Can you comment on that, please? It would be nice if you could respond with some positive news.

    I am not an expert on the way the body processes B2 and so I am not going to be able to comment on that.

    zak, my recommendations are not directed at you. The bottom line is that I do not mind you choosing to experiment on your body in this way, and I do not mind if others choose the same, but I am correct in warning them that there may be negative effects. They should verify this is safe with their doctors before proceeding and be aware that there may be negative effects -- either medical or related to their bed bug situation.

    You do not appear to be qualified to give medical or entomological advice on the internet so you'd be well advised to say the same.

  80. JWhiteBBCTV

    member
    Joined: Oct '08
    Posts: 232

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Apr 26 2011 8:44:09
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Nobugs, I would suggest blocking Zak from posting any further. It seems like they have some tie-in with a company who's trying to promote the technology. Nobody would try to argue forB1 this passionately without having some vested interest. There's literally nothing scientific to suggest this would work.

    He basically just dismissed the information I received from nutrionists who've made their lives on studying the uptake of vitamins and their effects on the body. He's obviously trying to sell a product.

  81. zak

    newbite
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 32

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Apr 26 2011 9:50:58
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I am not a "they" nor am I a company. I have no product to sell. If you read from the beginning, you will see that I am only a single individual who was attacked by pre-existing bedbugs in an apartment that I had recently moved into. After going through hell for a few months, my MD told me to try using 300 mg of oral vitamin B1. It worked. I see no evidence that nutritionists have dismissed the oral B1 method. I understand that skin patches may not be effective but that is a separate thing.
    I did not receive any notification of any results of a 'jar-test' as promised by Bed-bugscouk. I don't see it in the discussion above.

  82. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 17,188

    online

    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Apr 26 2011 11:24:16
    #



    Login to Send PM

    zak - 1 hour ago  » 

    I did not receive any notification of any results of a 'jar-test' as promised by Bed-bugscouk. I don't see it in the discussion above.


    zak,

    I did not say David had results of the test. I said he gave you an update three weeks ago. Here it is.

    I understand you're anxious for results, but as Ci suggested, it isn't anyone's job to test your idea. I am sure David will post an update if and when he has some results.

    Jeff,

    Thanks for your input on this thread and the information from nutritionists about the dermal patches, which is very helpful.

    It does not seem to me like zak is pushing a specific product right now as he is only trying to get people to purchase vitamins which are orally ingested and I gather he accepts your assessment of the b1 patches as ineffective.

    I can't stress enough that I don't think anyone should consider taking these vitamins in these quantities -- at least not without clearing it with their doctors -- and, keeping in mind, this may not work as zak suggests and may in fact be ineffective or even have negative repercussions in terms of getting bed bugs 100% out of your life and home. For those reasons, I would not recommend following zak's method. Perhaps in time we will have more information which would cause me to change my mind.

    However, I don't think anyone has anything new to say about zak's method at this time and I'd suggest we let it go dormant until David has some results.


RSS feed for this topic


Reply

You must log in to post.

201,667 posts in 31,248 topics over 95 months by 13,519 of 17,231 members. Latest: wunderful2, Nastybug1, Fozsbear