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	<title>Comments on: Maybe a new treatment - maybe snake oil</title>
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	<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Winston O. Buggy</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7994</link>
		<dc:creator>Winston O. Buggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7994</guid>
		<description>Reference: Zero Bug Zone
The more one looks into this product the more it seems conceived by Jules Verne.
Please don't waste your money in general and certainly in regard to bed bugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reference: Zero Bug Zone<br />
The more one looks into this product the more it seems conceived by Jules Verne.<br />
Please don&#8217;t waste your money in general and certainly in regard to bed bugs.</p>
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		<title>By: Winston O. Buggy</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7850</link>
		<dc:creator>Winston O. Buggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Certainly the environment you are treating effects application. But I think
repeated crack and crevice applications after the initial service are a good way
to go in most situations. The problem is the applications that fall between the two points. Neither macro or micro but just an application. Keep in mind again that
labels and other factors limit applications. But I feel if you can carry the battle to the
insurgents quarter and hit repeatedly and relentlessly disrupting avenues of retreat
that the day or in this case the night will be won and is won in many of the bed bug battles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly the environment you are treating effects application. But I think<br />
repeated crack and crevice applications after the initial service are a good way<br />
to go in most situations. The problem is the applications that fall between the two points. Neither macro or micro but just an application. Keep in mind again that<br />
labels and other factors limit applications. But I feel if you can carry the battle to the<br />
insurgents quarter and hit repeatedly and relentlessly disrupting avenues of retreat<br />
that the day or in this case the night will be won and is won in many of the bed bug battles.</p>
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		<title>By: hopelessnomo</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7849</link>
		<dc:creator>hopelessnomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7849</guid>
		<description>I appreciate the reply, Winston.

I should have made clear that what I interpreted about what Kramer said about "soaking" is what I thought he previously said on the subject, in his &lt;a href="http://pct.texterity.com/pct/200612/?pg=66" rel="nofollow"&gt;notes&lt;/a&gt; from the 2006 NPMA convention presentations, an article which has been linked here before and has been very useful to us:

&lt;blockquote&gt;We make voluminous applications (hose it down -- at least 1 to 2 gallons/unit).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Anecdotally, there are other PCOs who also make voluminous applications.  As you know, we take care to discourage people from "doing their own pest control" so that is not at all what was on my mind.  I'm just concerned about the specter of widescale treatment failures.  I just want to know what works in practice and whether PCOs who don't share this view are likely to have less success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate the reply, Winston.</p>
<p>I should have made clear that what I interpreted about what Kramer said about &#8220;soaking&#8221; is what I thought he previously said on the subject, in his <a href="http://pct.texterity.com/pct/200612/?pg=66" rel="nofollow">notes</a> from the 2006 NPMA convention presentations, an article which has been linked here before and has been very useful to us:</p>
<blockquote><p>We make voluminous applications (hose it down &#8212; at least 1 to 2 gallons/unit).</p></blockquote>
<p>Anecdotally, there are other PCOs who also make voluminous applications.  As you know, we take care to discourage people from &#8220;doing their own pest control&#8221; so that is not at all what was on my mind.  I&#8217;m just concerned about the specter of widescale treatment failures.  I just want to know what works in practice and whether PCOs who don&#8217;t share this view are likely to have less success.</p>
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		<title>By: Winston O. Buggy</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7838</link>
		<dc:creator>Winston O. Buggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7838</guid>
		<description>As far as Dr. Kramer's frankness you have to know that he is among other positive
things a retired army officer, which tends to leave one with a frank kind of attitude.
Also his version of "soaking" and yours (not personally) is quite different.
But truth be told the over zealous have left us with a depleted arsenal for pest control.
While some materials especially concentrated ones should not be in the hands of
untrained persons, professionally trained and certified pest control technicians and applicators who have passed state written and administered exams and are continually monitored and regulated should have more options. Especially as we are
experiencing increasing numbers, types and impact of a number of pests and vectors.

As far as zero bug zone is concened I must say the several folks I shared it with all
had a good laugh. I wonder if that scientific explanation originated with Aldous Huxley as he was cleansing the doors of perception or by Jules Verne with an alternative power source for the Nautilus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as Dr. Kramer&#8217;s frankness you have to know that he is among other positive<br />
things a retired army officer, which tends to leave one with a frank kind of attitude.<br />
Also his version of &#8220;soaking&#8221; and yours (not personally) is quite different.<br />
But truth be told the over zealous have left us with a depleted arsenal for pest control.<br />
While some materials especially concentrated ones should not be in the hands of<br />
untrained persons, professionally trained and certified pest control technicians and applicators who have passed state written and administered exams and are continually monitored and regulated should have more options. Especially as we are<br />
experiencing increasing numbers, types and impact of a number of pests and vectors.</p>
<p>As far as zero bug zone is concened I must say the several folks I shared it with all<br />
had a good laugh. I wonder if that scientific explanation originated with Aldous Huxley as he was cleansing the doors of perception or by Jules Verne with an alternative power source for the Nautilus.</p>
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		<title>By: hopelessnomo</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7817</link>
		<dc:creator>hopelessnomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 21:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7817</guid>
		<description>Winston, the article you cite is this one: &lt;a href="http://www.pctonline.com/articles/article.asp?MagID=1&#038;ID=3062&#038;IssueID=236" rel="nofollow"&gt;[Technically Speaking] EPA Emergency Exemption — the Time Is Now!&lt;/a&gt;

I confess I am a bit floored by it's frankness, and it's bleak view of IPM in relation to bedbugs:

&lt;blockquote&gt;At this writing, our industry is faced with a pandemic — bed bugs. Despite what you hear at conferences and read in trade journals, we do not have the tools (products) to effectively and economically manage these blood-feeding insects, much less eradicate them. What we must do to reduce their numbers smacks in the face of IPM.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In addition, there is this in reference to the author's own methods:

&lt;blockquote&gt;While it is not what I prefer to do I have had the greatest success in soaking all potential harborage sites with residual insecticides that appear from the research to kill the most bugs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Soaking.   What some would call, especially if you frown upon it -- and we've been taught that we all &lt;em&gt;ought&lt;/em&gt; to frown upon it -- an over-application.  I've heard this before, despite what we're told about why it's wrong.  So, why this technique that smacks of desperation?   Well, this is how Kramer puts it:

&lt;blockquote&gt;[W]e have products (mostly pyrethroids) that kill some but not all bed bugs if you spray it on them; residual insecticides are relatively ineffective after they dry; dusts don’t work unless you have weeks or months to wait; there is documented resistance to registered insecticides; there are no new products on the horizon; and no one appears to re-examining those products we lost during the past 10 to 15 years. Perhaps the most successful technique is what I see in many apartments: crushed bugs and blood smears across the walls.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So, the pesticides mostly work if directly sprayed on the bugs.  Is Kramer saying that the pesticides that are available are effectively little more than &lt;em&gt;contact killers&lt;/em&gt;?

This is the bleakest assessment I've seen in print to date.  I've heard all of it before, but this sounds a particular note of defeat that is unsettling.

Your thoughts, Winston?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Winston, the article you cite is this one: <a href="http://www.pctonline.com/articles/article.asp?MagID=1&#038;ID=3062&#038;IssueID=236" rel="nofollow">[Technically Speaking] EPA Emergency Exemption — the Time Is Now!</a></p>
<p>I confess I am a bit floored by it&#8217;s frankness, and it&#8217;s bleak view of IPM in relation to bedbugs:</p>
<blockquote><p>At this writing, our industry is faced with a pandemic — bed bugs. Despite what you hear at conferences and read in trade journals, we do not have the tools (products) to effectively and economically manage these blood-feeding insects, much less eradicate them. What we must do to reduce their numbers smacks in the face of IPM.</p></blockquote>
<p>In addition, there is this in reference to the author&#8217;s own methods:</p>
<blockquote><p>While it is not what I prefer to do I have had the greatest success in soaking all potential harborage sites with residual insecticides that appear from the research to kill the most bugs.</p></blockquote>
<p>Soaking.   What some would call, especially if you frown upon it &#8212; and we&#8217;ve been taught that we all <em>ought</em> to frown upon it &#8212; an over-application.  I&#8217;ve heard this before, despite what we&#8217;re told about why it&#8217;s wrong.  So, why this technique that smacks of desperation?   Well, this is how Kramer puts it:</p>
<blockquote><p>[W]e have products (mostly pyrethroids) that kill some but not all bed bugs if you spray it on them; residual insecticides are relatively ineffective after they dry; dusts don’t work unless you have weeks or months to wait; there is documented resistance to registered insecticides; there are no new products on the horizon; and no one appears to re-examining those products we lost during the past 10 to 15 years. Perhaps the most successful technique is what I see in many apartments: crushed bugs and blood smears across the walls.</p></blockquote>
<p>So, the pesticides mostly work if directly sprayed on the bugs.  Is Kramer saying that the pesticides that are available are effectively little more than <em>contact killers</em>?</p>
<p>This is the bleakest assessment I&#8217;ve seen in print to date.  I&#8217;ve heard all of it before, but this sounds a particular note of defeat that is unsettling.</p>
<p>Your thoughts, Winston?</p>
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		<title>By: Winston O. Buggy</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7804</link>
		<dc:creator>Winston O. Buggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7804</guid>
		<description>Actually in regard to things that would work
In a recent article in Pest Control Technology (Nov 2007) by Richard Kramer in his column, Technically Speaking, called for PCO's to petition the EPA to
reconsider the registration of products that have previously worked on
bedbugs.  In particular he cites organophosphates and carbamates.
These materials have only been off the market for a few years and were
replaced with synthetic pyrethroids.
You might consider talking with your US government representatives
(Senators &#38; Congressmen) and asking them to petition the EPA as well.
I think Mr. Kramer has a good point and it would be wise for the EPA
to take such action.  Please note: these materials are not DDT.  They
are however proven effective on bedbugs.
He is not suggesting they be brought back on the market as general use
pesticides but as restricted use materials labelled for bedbug control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually in regard to things that would work<br />
In a recent article in Pest Control Technology (Nov 2007) by Richard Kramer in his column, Technically Speaking, called for PCO&#8217;s to petition the EPA to<br />
reconsider the registration of products that have previously worked on<br />
bedbugs.  In particular he cites organophosphates and carbamates.<br />
These materials have only been off the market for a few years and were<br />
replaced with synthetic pyrethroids.<br />
You might consider talking with your US government representatives<br />
(Senators &amp; Congressmen) and asking them to petition the EPA as well.<br />
I think Mr. Kramer has a good point and it would be wise for the EPA<br />
to take such action.  Please note: these materials are not DDT.  They<br />
are however proven effective on bedbugs.<br />
He is not suggesting they be brought back on the market as general use<br />
pesticides but as restricted use materials labelled for bedbug control.</p>
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		<title>By: Winston O. Buggy</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7802</link>
		<dc:creator>Winston O. Buggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7802</guid>
		<description>Want to help fight against bed bugs in a universal, macro sense just send me the money but don't waste it here.  
PLEEEASEEE, you just can't believe what you see and hear.
Just beam me up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Want to help fight against bed bugs in a universal, macro sense just send me the money but don&#8217;t waste it here.<br />
PLEEEASEEE, you just can&#8217;t believe what you see and hear.<br />
Just beam me up!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: nobugsonme</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7768</link>
		<dc:creator>nobugsonme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I note that they're not even claiming it works on bed bugs.

Really glad to hear from you though, Buzinthehood, and I hope all is really well and bug-free chez vous!  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I note that they&#8217;re not even claiming it works on bed bugs.</p>
<p>Really glad to hear from you though, Buzinthehood, and I hope all is really well and bug-free chez vous!  <img src='http://bedbugger.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: nobugsonme</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7767</link>
		<dc:creator>nobugsonme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7767</guid>
		<description>Hey Anonymous users,

The problem of your names not showing up _should_ be fixed.   If you are logged in and allowing cookies, your names should show up.  Drop me an email if that does not work.  (nobugs a t bedbugger d o t com.)

Login is top right under "meta" in the sidebar.  If you are logged in try logging out and in again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Anonymous users,</p>
<p>The problem of your names not showing up _should_ be fixed.   If you are logged in and allowing cookies, your names should show up.  Drop me an email if that does not work.  (nobugs a t bedbugger d o t com.)</p>
<p>Login is top right under &#8220;meta&#8221; in the sidebar.  If you are logged in try logging out and in again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: bug_girl</title>
		<link>http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7765</link>
		<dc:creator>bug_girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bedbugger.com/2007/12/04/maybe-a-new-treatment-maybe-snake-oil/#comment-7765</guid>
		<description>This sounds like total BS. I don't see how this could possibly generate static, let alone repel insects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sounds like total BS. I don&#8217;t see how this could possibly generate static, let alone repel insects.</p>
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